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WINGCAR BUILDING SEMINAR***Let's Get Started!...

 
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67 Fairlane



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 125
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: WINGCAR BUILDING SEMINAR***Let's Get Started!... Reply with quote

One of the best and most popular "how-to" threads ever posted here was the "Wingcar Building Seminar" by Wingcar Builder. Doug (his alter-ego name Laughing ) was an avid modeler and super-detailer with a passion for those Mopar Aero-cars. His superior modeling techniques were clearly demonstrated and although presented as a seminar for building wingcars, are applicable to nearly all racecar builds.

Doug also demonstrated the benefit of thorough research in completing accurate models. He had enlisted the aid and collaboration of Terry Nichels (yes, THAT Nichels!) and Dr. John Craft...

Unfortunately Doug was unable to finish this epic article. As it happens (with all of us at one time or another) life intercedes and demands our undivided attention.

This is a huge thread. I have taken it and edited it down to just the instructional portions and any back and forth conversations that contribute additional information or techniques and further the modeling process. Other superfluous conversations were eliminated for space. As it is though, in its edited form, this article consumes 22 pages in Word and that's without the 120 photos. (Yes I have all but 2 of the photos and the missing ones are minor and are actually duplicated by others from different angles.)

So without further delay, I present Doug's article:


Last edited by 67 Fairlane on Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:37 am; edited 2 times in total
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67 Fairlane



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 125
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOTE: ALL PHOTOS (EXCEPT 2 THAT WERE UNRECOVERABLE) HAVE BEEN UPLOADED. THIS IS AN UNFINISHED ARTICLE BUT IT IS COMPLETE AS FAR AS THE AUTHOR TOOK IT. ENJOY!

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wingcar builder
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:27 am Post subject: Wingcar building seminar..........Let's get started!

there are many kits with good parts on the market today.too bad they don't just make the perfect nascar kit but.......hey we have to kit bash to get what we need or scratch build things the way we want them. the following pieces are very good starting points. i know everybody don't have these kits to kit bash from but some of you do. or buying some oldEbay helps to! the chassis i prefer to use is the AMT GTX, Superbee,or the Roadrunner all the same chassis but NOT!! the prostreet versions. they cannot be used. the cage i like to use is the polar lights Talladega kits or the Cyclone to start with. the chargers cages, the bars are to big to scale as far as i'm concerned.Polar lights made some great detail parts but the
kits were terrible. in the pics below you will see the amt chassis, controll arms and the fuel cell from P.L. kit. the front spindles are from the revell Daytona. i like them too. trim off the pieces flip the spindles upside down and it drops the nose down nice! we'll cover that in time along the way.

_________________
no sponsor or manufacture will ever control nascar!!....."Big Bill France Sr. what happened with that???

first off get rid of that fuel tank!! cut sheet of styrene to fill in between the frame rails. i like to use evercoat polyester filler dries in minutes and your ready to sand (plus very smooth) fill in the long hollow lines which would be the top side of the frame rails and fill the holes that the exhaust goes.








Wedge
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 5196
Location: Upper LA
(Louisiana)
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:48 am Post subject:

I smell a Hemi---get me closer!!!!

wingcar builder
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.

ok now for all you attention to detail sicko's like me, i'm going to put a "real" 4-speed and shifter in this! so we'll need some room. i'm making this exactly like a dodge shift tunnel so you'll need a few parts here's a pic of what we're doing first.



now i cut a hole in the floor, use a built up hemi and tranny or throw one together real quick to show where the shifter will be located. then drill a hole and then carve out with an exacto blade not to big thou. i found an old exaust stack off an old R model mack in the parts box it's perfect or use a piece of hollow tubing cut at an angle.





ok, now here it is in the rough. next we do a little more filler work for better shape and test fit a shifter up through the hole. but for tonight the rubber truck is here to pick me up to go back to my rubber room!! good night all!!! [LAUGHING][img]




here is a good pic showing where shifter is located. [img]



here's the shift tunnel after shaping and a little primer. final filing will be done when shifter is installed. a scratch built shift boot will be made for this as well.


OK,i'm going to use the polar lights talladega cage it's pretty basic and still available. like i said these kits are not that greatest but they are good bashing kits. assemble the front cage and sit it on your chassis(don't glue it yet!) to get an idea of where everything will be. note i'm also going to drill the floor on the shock area and scratch build 4the floor and attach to the shock support bar. there is one that comes in the p.l. kit but it's a little big, so i have one from an old mpc brooks kit because it's more to scale.




ok next put your cage in the body and then put your floor pan inand line it up to your A pillars and put the back bar just a little past the door/quarter seam. REMEMBER!! take your time, study this a little bit. then mark your floor where the cage should be with a pencil.








One thing i did forget to add (SORRY JUST GOT HOME FROM WORK LITTLE TIRED) the best bodies for this chassis is the mpc/amt Daytona and for the Superbird the Jo-Hann kit that's what i have the chassis in now. my Brooks Daytona is at the resin caster's this week i'm mastering the "correct" Daytona body.
_________________


OK were back, now when fitting the cage you want to make the bars slightly visible. notice how the top bar is under the roof drip rail and is not very noticable. same with the bar behind the "A" pillar, fit the cage leaving enough room for the windshield. remember the bars are not that big so closing up the side window opening with over size bars will make the rest
car look out of scale.




oh, remember while studing the side opening, picture a driver trying to do this on your car.



I stress the importance of scale because it will over shadow all the hard work you put in to the rest of the car. if the color has to be accurate then so does the scale,here is a pic of a jo-han petty superbird built-up i bought on ebay for the body only. look at the roll cage they give you in this kit. that is really hokey! almost as bad is that thing they give in the mpc k&k
Dodge kit/General Lee. now look at the differance in the cage fit below, much better! now you'll have some time filing some plastic here and there but when your ready to glue the cage to the floor it will have been worth it![img]




Got out of work early for once and made it to the hobby shop before it closed to get some stuff. seminar will resume, been real busy doing some masters to for the caster........some interesting things coming up guys!

Depending on which car your doing, wheather the Daytona or the Superbird, the rollcage fit will very. the AMT Daytona body is a lot thinner plastic than the old MPC Brooks Daytona or old K&K Dodge kits.the AMT also is a more flexable plastic altogether. old MPC plastic is more brittle, so don't force it or you will snap it. now in the pic below you'll notice the the bar on
the roof line goes up hill, you'll need to file the top of the cowl panel down to bring the body down a little and it won't hurt to shave a little off the underside of the windshield panel to help share the wealth. being this red body is a mpc Brooks kit it can be shaved a lot.




now for the engine cage. the one from p.l. kit is a good start, on the AMT firewall you'll see two faint casting rings. these are where you want to drill your holes to put the bars thru. but don't glue anything yet! put your body on after drilling the holes and see where you want the cage to sit





now on the firewall the air box mates up to it. in the following pics the firewall is cut out so air from the grilles below the windshield force air into the air box to the carb. what appears to be a rubber seal is attached to the firewall and fastened to the airbox as shown in the following pics.

[PHOTO MISSING]





[PHOTO MISSING]


it's best if you have an assembled Hemi to put in the chassis to estimate the distance in your cage and the location of where the air box will mate up




now once your satisfied where it will sit, mark the firewall with a pencil around the box.


before you get to carryied away check the clearance of the engine with air cleaner on before you cut where air box mates up. make sure hood closes or you might have to file down motor mounts slightly.




ok, now on the firewall,we're going to remove any wiring that is molded on there. fill in the area where the wiper motor is suppose to be with a little polyester filler. like i said i recommend this because it sands very easy and you don't ruin any plastic sanding it.sand off the filler with 320 grit. when your done set you motorin and draw a line where the air cleaner will go.


next,roughly cut out the hole with a dremel and file out the restso it's perfect.


then put your motor back in to see how you did. don't worry about the little space there it will get a gasket made for it later and a frame






next let's get rid of the k-member and the motor mounts. we'll be fabricating this out of plasic stock later. the motor mount for the engine connect differently. i'll post those pics ahead of time so everyone can study the pics to see how the motor sets in there.




the u brace goes behind the water pump and attaches to the new k-member we'll be making you can see in these pics how they attach the front of the engine to the frame



Here is the hemi out of the 1/16 scale General lee,the front mount is actually correct if anyone has this kit study the cross member and the engine and it'll help you get an idea how it should look.



ok, now these pics were supplied by DR. John Craft. these are of the Cotton Owens Daytona. as you can see the cross member is totally different than a stock K member.


now cut out the K member and strip pretty much everything but leave the torsion bars and control arm platforms.


then fit your engine (tape the air cleaner to the cowl) in again to see where the engine mounts will be. mark those with a pencil.



using .080 evergreen square tubing cut a piece for the front beam


now, cut a piece of 1/8" square tubing for the brackets in front of the torsion bars


now cut two more .080 pieces to connect the two


next trim out the center of the 1/8" piece where the engine sets


now put engine back in again. the front beam might need contoured to have proper fan clearance. also angle all four corners of the new K member so it's smooth with the frame



next put in the two angle on each side. these are where the engine front set of mounts will connect to the frame. we'll be making that as well.


now, one part i want to cover is the oil tank/battery. i want to do this now because it's easier before you put in the front cage. you'll need some sheet styrene and a knife and a little patience. but believe me it will be worth it!


draw out some pieces and cut them out of styrene. it takes a little while to size them. then glue them together file, shape, sand. just be careful not to make it over sized.




test fit tank where it will sit and mark cowl with a pencil.


cut out cowl and fit tank with battery under it



now once proper fit and tire clearance is achieved make a batery tray on the bottom put a little lip on the edge to hold the battery in place. mark out holes where oil feed and return and fill hoses will be.


now drill your holes and use metal tubing for the fitting pipes. on the top, for a more realistic appearance use photo-etched bolt heads. then shoot it with grey primer then aluminum paint. and you then have a oil reservoir.






wingcar builder

Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.

i was up way to late last night or early this morning working on the seminar, and about 3:45 a.m. it hit me ........how about a working front suspension? working torsion bars, working shocks and control arms? i new you'd like that, because i already started!! will get the pics posted. it will be holes drilled and parts made,
will be assembled after chassis is painted. but it will be cool! thanks for watching...Doug
_________________

Tom M.

Board Moderator
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 17144
Location: Columbia, SC

What year did the Hemis start using dry sumps?
I just scored a Brooks Daytona (body only) along with a complete Monogram Superbird that I will use for trade fodder for $12.50 on the 'Bay. I have two Brooks bodies and one K&K body to build up now. I wonder if I could cut the doors out of the K&K body and use doors from one of the recent AMT Daytonas to eliminate that
lump that was left over from the '70 R/T?
_________________

wingcar builder

Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.

According to Ramo Stott, the dry sump really was'nt used until around 69-70'. k-members varied per dry sump application. the #88 car that Don White owned was not a dry sump car so the k member is different than the one on the cotton owens Dodge.Ramo's superbird did'nt have one he said he did'nt have one until 71' but i
think he was refering to his other roadrunner, because the pics of the restored superbird don't have it there .



Tom M.
Board Moderator
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 17144
Location: Columbia, SC

That's kinda what I thought. The Hemis didn't go to it for reliability, they went with it for horsepower IIRC. Getting the windage away from the crank was worth a few horsepower, especially at the top end. If the #88 car didn't have one then I suspect the Nichels cars probably didn't either, at least not until some time in '70.
Petty might have used it first, since he had experience with them in the '69 Fords. I'm betting they were phased in from '70-'71 on the factory cars. I sure appreciate all this Mopar information!
_________________

wingcar builder
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.

let alone oil sloshing back and forth risking the pickup to be exposed,the one article i read says they picked up like another 15-20 hp with the crank not being buried in oil.and like Ramo said a big reason was no oil pan hanging down, front end could be slammed down further to the group

painterdave
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Durham,NC

Picked up a started kit at a yard sale for a song. Will this body work on the chassis and cage as per your seminar? What mods are needed?
_________________
wingcar builder
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.

the beginning of the seminar i give a idea of what we'll be working with, the amt Daytona, the Revell daytona and amt roadrunner and the pl torino or cyclone. but if your building a superbird then you'll need the Jo-han body. for the building seminar i'm using a richard brooks kit body which is the best. below is an example of
good parts sources

_________________












ok, now for the good part. as i said prior, i wanted to make a "working" torsion bar suspension. trim off the torsion bars and remove the molded in bars off the torque boxes and drill 1/16 inch holes. you want the holes tight so there is a little resistance. you don't want too big of a hole or the bars will be to sloppy. on the
Nichels chassis the original bars were replaced with bigger bars then factory.

now i'm using a set of amt/mpc axels as torsion bars. one because they are steel, two because they look good and they are the right size and give the car a realistic look.


next we'll be using the revell charger/Daytona lower control arms these are the best looking ones i"ve seen. carefully cut them off the k-member and then trim off the torsion bar and drill a hole in the same place as the one you cut off. slide the metal torsion bar threw the hole and test fit it.




next put the control arm on the bar and feed it back threw the torque box make sure the bar is straight and mark the front k-member and drill a hole there as well so the torsion bar goes threw it like factory.


now test for fit ,swivel it up and down. don't worry about the bar length that will be trimmed of after the chassis is painted and the final assembly happens this is to get proper fit and all holes drilled before painting and also this should be done before you put front cage in so you know where the front wheel will be so we can put
the up rights in and the shock mounts on so the cage all comes together without every thing being out of wack. and hey, you have a "working" torsion bar!!


here is what it should look like when your done. remember not to make your holes too big.you want just enough resistance so they are movable but won't collapse





80's racin' fan

Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 396
Location: jamestown, nc

also, i ran across a website you might find useful if you haven't seen it already.
It's www.aerowarriors.com Lots of pics & racing videos of Superbirds.
Hope you find it useful, can't wait until the next post.
_________________

wingcar builder

Joined: 12 Apr 2006

yes, that is a very informative and awesome site!! great pics there i've followed it for a long time now. Very Happy


ok, this part here can get a little frustating but it's worth it. the upper control arm we're doing will be functional. i will be using the upper control arms from the polar lights charger kit. first cut off the pedestels they have molded on the bottom of them.


next, cut two strips of styrene plastic to make the gussetts we will need. lay you control arm on the strip and mark it. then take the plastic and heat it with hot water so it's pliable.bend on each side then trim off a little excess but not too much because we'll do that later in clean up prior to paint.





ok next, center the lower control arm in the middle of the gussett and tack glue it there. now place the upper control arm in the gussett again for the center flanges that they bolt to. cut a piece of plastic for those and glue them in.





for this step it will take a little patience. take your drill and drill thru each upper control arm on each end.


then place the control arm in the gussett. i found it works better if you stand it up and then clamp it. you'll have to eye the hole a little being you can't see the end of the arm carefully drill it and the drill will follow into the hole of the arm if it's close. once that is done keep your drill straight and go all the way thru like in the
pics. good luck





ok, now the final assembly after paint these will get railroad hardware so for now i just put pins in them so you can see how they will look after they are together and they are functional. more posting in the next couple of days so stay tuned. thanks for looking and i hope you are enjoying this as much as i am doing this...thanks Doug





ok, now since i've been pondering the 1/25 scale ball joints (per Bill little) let's get started on the engine cage. if you notice when i started doing this seminar i put the holes for the front cage in the wrong place. our esteemed collegue Dr. John Craft was very generous to this seminar (as he is with the entire forum) by suppling
historical documented photos to me of a Cotton Owens Dodge, which in turn i had to revise the seminar. I am very greatful to Dr. Craft for these. He is a very important contributer to this forum. knowledge flows from him like a breeze thru an open window and i read every post he comments on. i've never had photos like the
one's he sent me so i apologize to anyone i mislead on the location of the bars but hey, it helped make me a better modeler as well. i moved the bars inward a mear 1/8 inch and had to put a little filler in the holes. in the photos below you'll see where i moved them.




when it comes to modeling, especially scratch building it is a constant , never ending task of test fitting parts and you'd swear you'll wear out the plastic test fitting parts and bodies but you have to keep in mind that it is neccessary for the end result to look correct. the pics below show the neccessity for correction i took in the
relocation of the engine cage bars.






so let's move on from here. and i'll get these pics posted of the the cage construction. once again thanks Dr. Craft..........Doug



now we're are quite aways from the season opener in riverside, for that matter this won't even be ready for the American 500 at Rockingham.
so the first thing we need to do is put the body back on the car and do some measuring.






now, with the body on take a piece of plastic tubing and measure the bar to the frame rail and mark the plastic tubing




make sure the top bar is level. i put mine just under the rivoted panel so there is no gap between the radiatorbar and the rivoted panel. if you
are using the amt body you'll have to picture where the panel will be.a safe bet will be about 3/8" from the nose.


ok, here's our chassis. now you'll need some plastic tubing and a little file a little zappa gap and patience. take your tubing and measure the
distance from the horizonal bar at the top to the frame rail.mark it with a marker.


now the bar goes to the outside of the frame rail not on top. in the pic below this is an outstanding shot of the front suspension supplied by our
wonderful Dr. Craft. this pic is about the best i've ever seen of the front suspension and the shock mounts. notice how the bar goes into the
frame side almost to the bottom not on top, the frame is rounded and the pipe goes in and is welded.


now put the plastic you cut in a little vise if you have one. gently shave the plastic flat on one side.don't worry about cutting them to length yet
take a knife and cut an angle at the top. remember the bars should be attached directly above where the control arm is bolted on the front bar
and the back bar


take your little round file and groove out the frame railfront and back and check the fit , you don't want the bar to far out of the frane rail.


here's the pic of the filing procedure. but don't go all the way down the frame rail only about 3/4 down. study the chassis pic!


see how the back bar is recessed into the frame. now trim the bar off 3/4 the way down and glue it in place.then do the front bar the same.


now cut a strip of plastic and put it thru the two bars and mark that. cut it a little over sized being that will actually be on the outside for the
shocks to attach. you can file and shape it more when it's glued in place.







now we're ready for a little filing and shaping.



Rocketman
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 6200
Location: Ottawa, IL

Just had a cage donor suggestion. When I did my first (and only completed unfortunately) dark side conversion back in 1998, my 1971 Petty
Plymouth Satellite/GTX, I modified the cage from the Monogram "Maxwell House" T-Bird kit. Scale looked right and did not have to modify too
much. Had to bend the "a-bars" slightlt and shorten it up.
Those late 80's early 90's T-bird kits are usually pretty cheap to get. The Maxwell Houise car came with the "slotted" type race wheels too.
Mike
_________________

Ancient Modeler

Board Moderator
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 15095

Hi Mike,
The early Revellogram T-bird cage is very similar to the PL Torino cage that Doug is using. You *might* have to remove a bar or two, but
otherwise they do work great.
Bill <><

wingcar builder
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.
Posts: 15095

the seminar will fire up this weekend, been really busy at the shop so stay tuned!! wingcar builder

Rocketman

Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 6200
Location: Ottawa, IL

Awsome! Looking forward to it. I'm relying on the seminar for build tips on my Dr. Tarr Charger 500. Just glued up the PL Cylcone cage the
other day and busted out my spare AMT Road Runner for donor chassis. Both seem to fit the AMT body perfectly!
Mike
_________________

wingcar builder

Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.
that's right mike, that is the chassis being used here.
_________________

Rocketman
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 6200
Location: Ottawa, IL

I scribed out the fuel tank as you illustrated tonight, attached the RR's front torsion assembly and marked out the cage placement with chassis
in the body. I have already paitned and polished the MPC/AMT Charger 500 body, so I am using a "Dukes" unpainted Charger body for all of the
test fits.
Mike
_________________
Rocketman
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 6200
Location: Ottawa, IL

On the topic of the fuel tank. Planned on filling hole with sheet styrene as shown early on in the seminar. Are you going to scratch build a yank
to fit over or does it get left "as is" after covering the hole?
Mike
_____________

wingcar builder

Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: P

the fuel cell will be recessed down in the trunk floor just like the real thing.

Rocketman
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 6200
Location: Ottawa, IL

Thanks, I wasn't sure if any portion of a fuel cell was viseable from the exterior as it seems to be on late greyside and newer cars.
Mike
_________________

Rocketman
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 6200
Location: Ottawa, IL

Doug:
Do you have any templates for the battery box stuff you illustrated earlier in the seminar?
Mike
_________________
Rocketman
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 6200
Location: Ottawa, IL

wingcar builder wrote:
[“Depending on which car your doing, wheather the Daytona or the Superbird, the rollcage fit will very. the AMT Daytona body is a lot thinner
plastic than the old MPC Brooks Daytona or old K&K Dodge kits.the AMT also is a more flexable plastic altogether. old MPC plastic is more
brittle, so don't force it or you will snap it. now in the pic below you'll notice the the bar on the roof line goes up hill, you'll need to file the
top of the cowl panel down to bring the body down a little and it won't hurt to shave a little off the underside of the windshield panel to help
share the wealth. being this red body is a mpc Brooks kit it can be shaved a lot.”
]

Working on the firewall mod for my Charger 500. Found I had to shave the sides of the RR firewall too, where it meets the fenders on the AMT
(MPC) Charger 500 body, as I shaved the top cowl area. When I shaved the top it effectively moved the "wider" part of the firewall up into the
"narrower" part of the body.
Mike
_________________





skunkyg420

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 482
Location: FL

Wow!! so far this is shaping up to be a awesome car!!
So much detail.. you could use this just for about any car for informative instructions or a how to.. im so eager to see the rest of your build..
excelent work..
_________________


Rocketman
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 6200
Location: Ottawa, IL

A follow up on my Charger 500 progression using tips from Doug in this seminar. When doing the MPC/Charger-Charger 500-AMT Roadrunner
chassis as is illustrated above I advocate adhereing to the scratchbuit "K-Member" plan like Doug is doing it.

Due to my attempt to make a contest coming up in November I opted to build leaving the existing AMT "K-Frame" and arms as they are in
place.
However, as I am getting down to it now, this has created a bit more of a challange with hood clearance than I expected. I have had to chop off
the kit "peg" mounts (still too high) and actually file down the top and bottom of the carb to reduce height and shave the side a bit so it will
snug down nice and low in Ron & Doug's Hemi intake. Now I need to fashion some kind of a lower mount so the motor is not sitting directly on
the K-member.
And, there is not enough thickness on the existing frame rail to mount the PL A-arm; meaning, the "forward" of the two front shocks on each
side of the car will have to be mounted incorrectly in front of the A-arm instead of through it. The pic above shows two shocks going through the
Arm, a pic in Dr. Craft's Mopar in Na$car book has one Cotton Owens Dodge pic with one shock (trailing shock) outside of the Arm; the #88
Taladega Museum car with one shock (trailining shock) outside; and the Ramo Stott Superbird I believe has one trailing shoock outside the arm.
Live and learn.
Mike
_________________

wingcar builder
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.

sorry to leave you guys hanging but i've been swamped at the shop, things are slowing down so we'll resume! on a lighter note this nichels
chassis is going to be cast in resin and be available thru Ron Andrews for use with the amt roadrunner/gtx/super bee kit! that is being used in
this seminar! .......so stay tuned! you to Bill!!
_________________

StillLearning

Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Las Vegas NV

Thanks Wingcar Builder... Just as I was starting to feel good about my skills again. Very Happy Seriously, this is a great seminar and a great build to
follow. I don't know if I'll build a wingcar or not but, I am getting more courageous about scratchbuilding and working with styrene. Thanks.
_________________
Rich Cummings


Ancient Modeler
Board Moderator
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 15095

Hi Rich,

The great thing is, the build can be used for any of the Mopar cars from at least '67-'70! (with the *possible* exception of a couple of Petty
cars) I am going to do the Road Runner that Jabe Thomas loaned to Wendell Scott after Wendell tore up his Torino. Very Happy
Bill <><



sorry for keeping you guys on hold for so long. soooooooo let's post some pics. let's resume where we left off. after you make gussetts and glue
them in (i like the zap a gap best.) sand the edges and blend the edges so they look like they have been welded and ground down


now, for the front bar thats bolted in across the front. the gussets are welded on the horizontal pipes. see the photo.


to make this bar i used plastic rod and photo-etched exhaust gussetts



file the plastic down so the gussett slips over the end and lightly glue it in place.


test fit the bar in place but don't cement it in yet that comes later.


wingcar builder

Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.

One thing i wanted to say before we go any farther is that the interest in this seminar has really been great. i've gotten a lot of positive remarks
and thank you's for doing this. yes it is a lot of work researching, building, photographing and posting but it is worth it. also i want to let you
guys know that we've had a very important guest on our board...the one and only Terry Nichels! and he's enlightened me on a lot of little known
things about the wingcars and i'm going to pass them on to you guys. there are a few things that we'll have to change on this seminar.....but, i
don't want to get to many people confused or disgusted and not want to finish their projects. but hey, who better to listen to about these cars
than Mr. Nichels? the times i've talked to him knowledge flows like a breeze thru a open window. he is an important asset to this community.
i've also started on a book on building the Nichels chassis and the wingcars. that's all i'm going to say about it now but i'll keep you all posted.
so back to the seminar, thanks for your patience the last couple of months. i've been pretty busy at the shop and now things are winding down
so the seminar will be up and running again. thanks again for your interest and the complements on this. and thanks for this space on the
board!
kindest regards
Wingcar builder
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Tom M.
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I would love it if Terry had some "in-process" photos to share. Nichels cars were by far the most common Mopar chassis, and there isn't much
good reference on them from before they were re-skinned and updated.

Ancient Modeler

Board Moderator
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 15095

Hi Doug,
I could tell the enthusiam when you called to tell me about Terry, and your conversations with him! I know you are really looking forward to that
visit. Very Happy
As to the seminar, I would go forward and also incorporate the fabricated rear clip! That is something that can still be done if a builder so
desires.
Having Terry Nichels here would be awesome. We need to get him to register and join in! Plus, you will have even MORE references after your
visit.
Things are looking up in the Dark Side Kingdom!!!!
BTW: Since you significant other is building one of "My make" of cars, I am doing one of yours! A Road Runner and a Charger 500 are first up!
Bill <><
P.S. Still waiting on the contact info for the resin pieces. Very Happy

here are some ideas on putting the brackets on the firewall. take some styrene strips and cut and bend. i drilled
mine cause they're going to be bolted on.


also take your tubing and cut to length and notch the ends and drill also. as you can see in the pics i have a drill bit
going thru the holes for alignment purpose.


ok, now before we finish drilling holes in the front cage let's make some shocks. what you'll need is a piece of
aluminum tubing and a paper clip. for tools you'll need a tubing cutter, wire cutters and set of drills. first measure
how long your shocks will need to be, around a 1/2" long. next cut a couple slices of tubing.


next take a paper clip and open it up carefully. stick it in the tubing almost until it bottoms out and mark it and cut
it with the wire cutters. now take one of the slices of tubing and drill a hole in the side of it and you might have to
ream it out a little with a x-acto knife.


now glue the piece of paper clip in the hole of the slice of tubing and glue one on the bottom of the tubing as well.


and you have a shock. now you want to clean any burrs off so it moves smoothly so it will fit in any position of your
chassis.


now after your done you can prime and paint the shock and the top of the shock but no paint on the rod. and don't
glue it! remember you want it to move freely. and here is the loaded position. now only 7 more to go. actually once
you get going it takes about a 1/2 hour to make a shock.



here is a pic of the shock painted and the rubber stopper on the shaft scale bolt will be used for installation. now i'll
build the other 3 shocks for the front end and worry about the rear one's later.




80's racin' fan
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 396
Location: jamestown, nc

Doug, what size tubing are you using for the shocks. Those are some of the most realistic I've seen built. Great job
and thanks for the tip. jason

wingcar builder

Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.

thanks Jason, i hope this helps everyone out . they do look alot better than plastic ones and do add more realism to
a build. i use .080 aluminum tubing available from most hobby shops and use a large paper clip. stick- pins are to
small for the shafts.. WcB
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Aero426

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1334

For those of you interested in the Aero Cars, I've posted some new updates on our superbirdclub.com website.
Notably there are some factory Aero test results from Ford running the King Cobra and Talladega against the
Daytona in 1969. Check them out if you are interested.
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1334
http://www.superbirdclub.com/WhatsNew.html

Indystock wrote:

Hey Doug,
Hope everything turns out well for you. I am looking forward to
Toledo for many reasons. I have a ton of Nichels' questions among
other things. Speaking of which, do you of anything definite on
if/when the book about Ray will ever be published? Would Butch
Harman's cars have been built at Ray's, or at least the parts come
through Nichels? I'll save the rest for Toledo.
Chuck

Aero426
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1334

Any Chrysler race car or race car part from 1964 through the end of
1970 would come from Nichels Engineering. The Pettys built their own
cars during this time, but parts and pieces were still routed through
Nichels to them.
From 1971 on, all new Chrysler race cars and parts would be sold and
distributed through Petty Enterprises. This was part of the negotiated
deal the Pettys made with Chrysler to come back from Ford.
After 1970, Nichels still had parts and pieces to function as a race
team. I'm sure they were able to provide some support to their local
USAC customers. But they had lost their best customer, which was
Chrysler Corporation.

john24
Joined: 20 Sep 2010
Posts: 66
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Ancient Modeler wrote:
john24 wrote:
[nice build but does anyone have any idea where he got the
engine?
]

Ancient Modeler
Board Moderator
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 15095

Hi John,
Don't completely understand the question.........
I haven't read through the build in quite some time, but any
of the hemi engines that come in the kits can serve as a good
start. The bath tub intake is a resin piece, but I would have to
look up the source.
Do you have a specific car/cars you want to build? A specific
kit you have to start with?
For a start, any of the 1/25th kits can serve as a base. This
"Seminar" was started by Doug to try and build as accurate a
model as possible. A "Shelf model" will take a lot less work
and time, of course.
We'll try to help as much as possible. Just lay out what you
would like to build.
Mongo

john24
Joined: 20 Sep 2010
Posts: 66

the intake and the air cleaner look like what come with the 1/16
general lee. just never saw those peices with any of the 1/25 scale
engines. thats why i wonder where he sourced the model engine in the
photo. i want to build a 1969 charger stock car.

Ancient Modeler

Board Moderator
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 15095

The intake and air cleaner are resin items Doug mastered, IIRC. I
believe he mentions where they are available in the thread.
If you want to build a "NASCAR" Grand National (Pre Cup) '69 Charger
then the Seminar is the best source of information there is right now.
The 1969 Charger 500 is available as the AMT/MPC reissue. The
Daytona kits are covered in multiple threads. The Revell Daytona is the
probably best kit to start with, but it all depends on how much detail
you want to add.
There are no NASCAR dedicated kits available as recent issues, you will
have to source or scratch build the "racing items".
Mongo
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Rocketman
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 6200
Location: Ottawa, IL

john24 wrote:
[“i looked and never saw him mention the engine but put it in
and take it out. but thanks for the help”
]
Ancient Modeler wrote:
[“The intake and air cleaner are resin items Doug mastered,
IIRC. I believe he mentions where they are available in the
thread.
If you want to build a "NASCAR" Grand National (Pre Cup)
'69 Charger then the Seminar is the best source of
information there is right now.
The 1969 Charger 500 is available as the AMT/MPC reissue.
The Daytona kits are covered in multiple threads. The
Revell Daytona is the probably best kit to start with, but it
all depends on how much detail you want to add.
There are no NASCAR dedicated kits available as recent
issues, you will have to source or scratch build the "racing items".
Mongo”
]

Intake, mastered by Doug, is from Ron Andrews/aka Race Motor
Replicas.
http://www.freewebs.com/rmrresin/
last time i checked Ron did not have them listed on the site, but I ghis phone number somewhere (the site i think) and he still had themat that time. About a year and a half or so ago.
Mike
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Dennis O
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Joined: 28 Jan 2018
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Location: Louisville, Ky.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for digging this out.....
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Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.......
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67 Fairlane



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 125
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis O wrote:
Thanks for digging this out.....


My pleasure Dennis. If you could see your way clear to turning this into a sticky at some point, it would be much appreciated.

Jerry
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BW



Joined: 01 Feb 2018
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Location: Lick Creek, Alabama

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that this needs to be a sticky! Thanks 67 Fairlane for taking the time to re-post this classic thread! I followed this in all my Daytona builds and is probably one of the all-time best sticky's ever! Thanks again!

Bobby
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Dennis O
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Done....
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Mack



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis O wrote:
Done....


Thank you very much.
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67 Fairlane



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Sir!
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Rocketman



Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: WINGCAR BUILDING SEMINAR***ALL PHOTOS ARE UP!... Reply with quote

67 Fairlane wrote:
One of the best and most popular "how-to" threads ever posted here was the "Wingcar Building Seminar" by Wingcar Builder. Doug (his alter-ego name Laughing ) was an avid modeler and super-detailer with a passion for those Mopar Aero-cars. His superior modeling techniques were clearly demonstrated and although presented as a seminar for building wingcars, are applicable to nearly all racecar builds.

Doug also demonstrated the benefit of thorough research in completing accurate models. He had enlisted the aid and collaboration of Terry Nichels (yes, THAT Nichels!) and Dr. John Craft...

Unfortunately Doug was unable to finish this epic article. As it happens (with all of us at one time or another) life intercedes and demands our undivided attention.

This is a huge thread. I have taken it and edited it down to just the instructional portions and any back and forth conversations that contribute additional information or techniques and further the modeling process. Other superfluous conversations were eliminated for space. As it is though, in its edited form, this article consumes 22 pages in Word and that's without the 120 photos. (Yes I have all but 2 of the photos and the missing ones are minor and are actually duplicated by others from different angles.)

So without further delay, I present Doug's article:



Which 2 pics are you missing? I saved them all way back when in 06? When first posted
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67 Fairlane



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 125
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Mike,

Glad to hear from you!

I wish I could be more specific about the missing pics. They dealt with the air induction cowling. Not sure if they were different angles on the model version Doug built of if they were photos from Nichels. (Probably photos from Nichels based upon where they appear in the article) That's the best I can do. If you go back in the thread you'll see where I marked their position in the article with [PHOTO MISSING} in red. If you saved the photos in the order of their appearance and/ or saved the whole thread to a pdf, you should find them.

When I saved this thread to my personal hard drive, there was an apparent issue with photobucket so they weren't displayed then. Anyway see if you can find them and let me know. If you send them to me either as a pdf, jpeg, png etc. I can edit the thread and put them right where they belong. With proper credit of course!

Thanks for helping out. Thanks too for your contributions to the thread in its original form. Your back-and-forth discussions with Doug served to expand everyone's thinking on this topic.

Regards,
Jerry

PS: PM Sent.
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Rocketman



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

67 Fairlane wrote:
Hey Mike,

Glad to hear from you!

I wish I could be more specific about the missing pics. They dealt with the air induction cowling. Not sure if they were different angles on the model version Doug built of if they were photos from Nichels. (Probably photos from Nichels based upon where they appear in the article) That's the best I can do. If you go back in the thread you'll see where I marked their position in the article with [PHOTO MISSING} in red. If you saved the photos in the order of their appearance and/ or saved the whole thread to a pdf, you should find them.

When I saved this thread to my personal hard drive, there was an apparent issue with photobucket so they weren't displayed then. Anyway see if you can find them and let me know. If you send them to me either as a pdf, jpeg, png etc. I can edit the thread and put them right where they belong. With proper credit of course!

Thanks for helping out. Thanks too for your contributions to the thread in its original form. Your back-and-forth discussions with Doug served to expand everyone's thinking on this topic.

Regards,
Jerry

PS: PM Sent.
Very Happy
Jerry, I emailed you the info, hope it helps. Very best Mike
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Henryjint



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
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Location: NY State's Hudson Valley

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for re-posting this!!!!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a little article on the wing cars that I stumbled on regarding their history and development. It has some input from odcics if I'm not mistaken and several nice pics.

https://www.allpar.com/model/superbird.html

John
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odcics2



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Posts: 283

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john843 wrote:
Here's a little article on the wing cars that I stumbled on regarding their history and development. It has some input from odcics if I'm not mistaken and several nice pics.

https://www.allpar.com/model/superbird.html

John


Yes, I had some input. There are errors in the article, though.
Example, how the SuperBird nose was painted! NOT enamel but lacquer!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wingcar builder
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: PA.

According to Ramo Stott, the dry sump really was'nt used until around 69-70'. k-members varied per dry sump application. the #88 car that Don White owned was not a dry sump car so the k member is different than the one on the cotton owens Dodge.Ramo's superbird did'nt have one he said he did'nt have one until 71' but i
think he was refering to his other roadrunner, because the pics of the restored superbird don't have it there .



Tom M.
Board Moderator
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 17144
Location: Columbia, SC

That's kinda what I thought. The Hemis didn't go to it for reliability, they went with it for horsepower IIRC. Getting the windage away from the crank was worth a few horsepower, especially at the top end. If the #88 car didn't have one then I suspect the Nichels cars probably didn't either, at least not until some time in '70.

CORRECTION: The 88 was the FIRST MoPar to have a dry sump, Nov. 1968. Nichels cars built after that had that option. One reason to have it was a lower engine, meaning a lower front end. Bottom of the oil pan had a 5" from the ground minimum, per Nascar. Lower = faster.

Dry sump tank on the Owens car is a typical Nichels piece.

All the Dodges ran by Owens, K&K, Rossi, etc. were built by Nichels. Some guys made a tank for short track use and mounted it behind the driver for more weight by the wheel.

First post shows a round 4 speed hole. The red car in the photo is the #37 1967 K&K Dodge. (Now in the Nascar Museum made to look like a 69 Charger!!) 68 and later builds usually have a rectangular hole for the shifter. Note: the red car in the pic does not have any inside torsion bar reinforcements on the floor, another giveaway that it is a 66-67 chassis.

Shock location on late 68 - 70 was both top mounts together, inside the "A" bars. One shock outboard denotes an updated car, or early 68 build.

69 Charger 500s built after the 88 had the body 1.5 degrees relative to the chassis. Most all these ended up as Daytonas in late 1969. A new 69 Daytona build did NOT have this modification. They were 1/2 a degree. Not noticeable...
No Plymouths had body to chassis rake modifications, as a Road Runner or SuperBird. So, 2 different chassis between a Dodge and Plymouth, besides the wheelbase difference.
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Firefly



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for bringing back this incredible sticky! This will help with my 1/16 '72 K&K project!
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