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When were shoulder harnesses commonly used in NASCAR?

 
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Irish Murphy



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Upstate SC

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: When were shoulder harnesses commonly used in NASCAR? Reply with quote

Anyone know when shoulder harnesses became the norm in NASCAR?[/b]
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odcics2



Joined: 09 Feb 2018
Posts: 283

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Early 60s?
It would be in the Nascar rule book when it was required.
I see those show up on ebay.
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hillybilly



Joined: 14 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They were mandated after Joe Weatherly cracked his head on a retaining wall in 1964.
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lizard racing



Joined: 16 Mar 2018
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a u-tube video of Junior Johnson going over his '63 Chevy. He said he installed a harness, but NASCAR made him take it out.
I remember Weatherly cracking his head at Riverside in '64. He hit the wall with the left side of the car and his head went out the window. He only had a lap belt.
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George Andrews



Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 458

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe was very concerned about the possibility of being caught in the car if a fire erupted. Thus his reasoning for not wearing a harness, though I have seen a picture of him wearing a diagonal shoulder strap, like passenger cars have today. Don't know if it used a separate latch.
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29-Ford



Joined: 17 May 2018
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you will find Weathery's death mandated the addition of window nets.
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BrianP



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought window nets weren’t mandated until 1970, after Petty wrecked at Darlington.
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George Andrews



Joined: 30 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrianP wrote:
I thought window nets weren’t mandated until 1970, after Petty wrecked at Darlington.

Correct. Though some teams and / or drivers had run window nets before ( or something like one -- I've seen a picture of someone using a piece of expanded metal screen door guard Shocked ), the sight of RP's left shoulder & arm flapping out the window was cause for NASCAR to mandate window nets. Some of the early nets were of questionable effectiveness, most were a piece of volleyball netting !!! BTW - the Darlington wreck caused Petty to miss several subsequent races, possibly costing him the 1970 Grand National Championship. His wreck was vicious to the point that some piece of harness or hardware had to have broken for his body to come out the window so far.
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Photos of Joe Weatherly's body being taken from his car at Riverside clearly show that his helmet was unblemished. His head did *not* hit the wall. It is very likely that he died of basal skull fracture...like Earnhardt and many others. The window net came into mandated use in (edit) 1971 after Petty's wreck at Darlington in (Edit) 1970.

Last edited by C5HM on Sun May 20, 2018 10:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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odcics2



Joined: 09 Feb 2018
Posts: 283

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:
Photos of Joe Weatherly's body being taken from his car at Riverside clearly show that his helmet was unblemished. His head did *not* hit the wall. It is very likely that he died of basal skull fracture...like Earnhardt and many others. The window net came into mandated use after Petty's wreck at Darlington in 1971.


Typo, you meant 1970.
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George Andrews



Joined: 30 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:
Photos of Joe Weatherly's body being taken from his car at Riverside clearly show that his helmet was unblemished. His head did *not* hit the wall. It is very likely that he died of basal skull fracture...like Earnhardt and many others. The window net came into mandated use after Petty's wreck at Darlington in 1971.

In Bud Moore's Autobiography, pg. 81 - 2nd paragraph a quote from Bud : " He went into the the wall sideways on the driver's side. Turn six was about a 60- or 65 mile-an -hour turn and he got airborne running probably 80 or 90 or more. He hit his head on the wall. "
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

George, Never trust a scribbler. Pictures do not lie. Memories fade (even those of legends...). And the understanding of basal skull fracture has significantly increased since 1964, as well. Have you seen the photos that show Joe's helmet was *unblemished*. If so, do you not believe your own eyes? They were posted here before the great crash that wiped out this place (and before Photobucket accomplished the same thing, I might add). They are currently posted on FB in a related thread. Check them out. Get back to me after you do.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213854053080358&set=p.10213854053080358&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213854114641897&set=p.10213854114641897&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213850529752277&set=p.10213850529752277&type=3&theater&ifg=1

There is a forum on FB that you may enjoy. It is called Grand National Stock Car History until 1972 (not to be confused with others of similar name). Check it out. It is a great place for stock car history. Much like this place used to be before the double whammy of the crash and the Photobucket rip.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/503948376298668/

BTW, I do not use Photobucket any more. Will never use them again...even though they have recently amended their piracy and reduced their rates. Not sure what folks are using now as a replacement to post third part shots?


Last edited by C5HM on Sun May 20, 2018 11:06 am; edited 3 times in total
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

odcics2 wrote:
C5HM wrote:
Photos of Joe Weatherly's body being taken from his car at Riverside clearly show that his helmet was unblemished. His head did *not* hit the wall. It is very likely that he died of basal skull fracture...like Earnhardt and many others. The window net came into mandated use after Petty's wreck at Darlington in 1971.


Typo, you meant 1970.


I actually did mean 1971...because that is when the mandated use of window nets began. But the sentence structure was sloppy. So I have amended it.
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George Andrews



Joined: 30 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:
George, Never trust a scribbler. Pictures do not lie. Memories fade (even those of legends...). And the understanding of basal skull fracture has significantly increased since 1964, as well. Have you seen the photos that show Joe's helmet was *unblemished*. If so, do you not believe your own eyes? They were posted here before the great crash that wiped out this place (and before Photobucket accomplished the same thing, I might add). They are currently posted on FB in a related thread. Check them out. Get back to me after you do.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213854053080358&set=p.10213854053080358&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213854114641897&set=p.10213854114641897&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213850529752277&set=p.10213850529752277&type=3&theater&ifg=1


The first picture linked on, even in low resolution, shows Joe's nose and left eye, with bruising and possible blood flow. The book I'm still trying to find in my collection, has a higher resolution of this same image. As a black & white original, with both his helmet and the track worker's shirt in white, it is difficult to see any damage to the helmet. But there sure was visible damage to Joe's face.
For the sake of Joe's memory, I will end my part of this discussion now.
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is not a a discussion about anyone’s memory. Rather it is an attempt to set straight one of the many enduring myths in Grand National racing that folks cling to. As noted(in either high or low resolution), Joe’s helmet is undamaged. Ergo, it could not possibly have hit the wall. What you see on Joe’s face is blood...not bruising (the shot is taken just moments after the accident, you will agree). If as you suggest, Joe’s face somehow hit the wall, one would expect the helmet visor to be damaged. It is not.
Basal skull fracture produces exactly that type of massive bleeding. You will note the blood flow down Joe’s Rebel 300 shirt and on to his Chinos. Basal Skull fracture occurs when an un restrained head wants to continue its forward motion when the body it is attached to is strapped in place during sudden deceleration. The skull literally fractures from ear hole to ear hole (across the back of the cranium just above the muscle attachment area) and through the palate...All the major vessels are torn and the blood in them surges out the openings. That is what you see in the photos...What you *do not* see is any evidence of Joe’s head ever having hit the wall...or of blunt force trauma. Same thing happened to Earnhardt, Bonnet and a number of other drivers lost in sudden deceleration accidents/shunts...prior to the HANS device.
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Irish Murphy



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Upstate SC

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM with all due respect I started this post asking about shoulder harnesses not the cause of death of Joe. Perhaps you should start your own thread trying to prove your threory. We can now close this thread.
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irish Murphy wrote:
C5HM with all due respect I started this post asking about shoulder harnesses not the cause of death of Joe. Perhaps you should start your own thread trying to prove your threory. We can now close this thread.


And you got your answer, no?

A quick review of the thread will remind when the topic expanded to include Joe’s unfortunate death. And that his death is almost inextricably intertwined with the question you posed.

As to “theories”, I have none. Only the factual record as documented in the photographs from that day.

Perhaps you might realize that there is no need for a separate thread, on the facts that I have just reviewed.

I have been a member here for the best part of a decade. More I think. Not sure that I have ever had anyone suggest they had gotten *too much* historical information in response to a question they posed. At least not before now.

Interesting.
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Irish Murphy



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
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Location: Upstate SC

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:
Irish Murphy wrote:
C5HM with all due respect I started this post asking about shoulder harnesses not the cause of death of Joe. Perhaps you should start your own thread trying to prove your threory. We can now close this thread.


And you got your answer, no?

A quick review of the thread will remind when the topic expanded to include Joe’s unfortunate death. And that his death is almost inextricably intertwined with the question you posed.

As to “theories”, I have none. Only the factual record as documented in the photographs from that day.

Perhaps you might realize that there is no need for a separate thread, on the facts that I have just reviewed.

I have been a member here for the best part of a decade. More I think. Not sure that I have ever had anyone suggest they had gotten *too much* historical information in response to a question they posed. At least not before now.

Interesting.
I started my reply to you by being as respectful as I could, obviously you were offended anyway, that was not my intentions. As the OP I feel I have a say in which direction my post goes. I understand how it went in the direction it did but tell me exactly what does the cause of death of little Joe have to do with my original question? So many times threads get hijacked and steered in a direction away from the original post. Have a nice day
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irish Murphy wrote:
C5HM wrote:
Irish Murphy wrote:
C5HM with all due respect I started this post asking about shoulder harnesses not the cause of death of Joe. Perhaps you should start your own thread trying to prove your threory. We can now close this thread.


And you got your answer, no?

A quick review of the thread will remind when the topic expanded to include Joe’s unfortunate death. And that his death is almost inextricably intertwined with the question you posed.

As to “theories”, I have none. Only the factual record as documented in the photographs from that day.

Perhaps you might realize that there is no need for a separate thread, on the facts that I have just reviewed.

I have been a member here for the best part of a decade. More I think. Not sure that I have ever had anyone suggest they had gotten *too much* historical information in response to a question they posed. At least not before now.

Interesting.
I started my reply to you by being as respectful as I could, obviously you were offended anyway, that was not my intentions. As the OP I feel I have a say in which direction my post goes. I understand how it went in the direction it did but tell me exactly what does the cause of death of little Joe have to do with my original question? So many times threads get hijacked and steered in a direction away from the original post. Have a nice day


How else to interpret your post but as a presumptuous rebuke to me for discussing Joe’s death?

It was, afterall, directed at me.....Your lip service to respect notwithstanding. You continue to post in that same vein...Yet, it was not I who broached that apparently *offending* subject.

I simply set the historical record straight. When that record was questioned, I provided additional proof.

I also provided a link to a cool FB site that serves the purpose this placed used to before the crash. LOTS of photos there for the NASCAR historian and modeler.

Consider those facts.

Consider also that threads go where they may go. That is the fun of the net. That you may not like where they go is just your opinion. You really can’t presume to be the arbiter of what gets posted in a thread...can you? Even one that you start. You certainly don’t have the ability to require people to start their own threads...just because you think they should or because they post something you think they shouldn’t.

That threads may cover NASCAR history beyond the scope of an original post...*used to be* the fun of this place in years gone by.

You don’t seem to be having much fun...though it is likely that you have had the chance to learn some things that you (and certainly Gerorge) did not know about the history of seat belt use.

Interesting.
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JCee



Joined: 16 Mar 2018
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this leads me to a question I have on the Moebius 61 Bud Moore Pontiac kit. Joe Weatherly as noted as not having used shoulder harnesses due to fear of being trapped in a fire. So would the provided harness in the kit not be accurate?
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Irish Murphy



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
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Location: Upstate SC

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCee wrote:
So this leads me to a question I have on the Moebius 61 Bud Moore Pontiac kit. Joe Weatherly as noted as not having used shoulder harnesses due to fear of being trapped in a fire. So would the provided harness in the kit not be accurate?
Thats right.. everything I have read and seen Joe never used shoulder harnesses. I used this same kit to make a Cotton Owens version, that’s why I originally posted this topic because I was unsure which way to go myself. In the end I wound up going with just the lap belt. I’m still not completely sure if that was accurate because things I read said Cotton was one of the first to start using shoulder harnesses, just not sure if it was used as early as the 1962 season.
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCee wrote:
So this leads me to a question I have on the Moebius 61 Bud Moore Pontiac kit. Joe Weatherly as noted as not having used shoulder harnesses due to fear of being trapped in a fire. So would the provided harness in the kit not be accurate?


Joe was not wearing a shoulder harness at Riverside. That was not unusual, though. A number of drivers also raced without that harness...to include Ned Jarrett, Pancho and even Dan Gurney.

Here are some links to the FB thread I referenced. I still haven't found a third part hosting site to replace Photobucket, or I would post them directly.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213850529752277&set=p.10213850529752277&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213854104401641&set=p.10213854104401641&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213858964483140&set=p.10213858964483140&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213858969803273&set=p.10213858969803273&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213858972763347&set=p.10213858972763347&type=3&theater&ifg=1
The Grand National Stock Car History (before 1972) FB Forum is a great site and photo posting is a breeze. I highly recommend it. Many...maybe most of the old guard from here pre-crash, hangs out over there now. Check it out.
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odcics2



Joined: 09 Feb 2018
Posts: 283

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:
odcics2 wrote:
C5HM wrote:
Photos of Joe Weatherly's body being taken from his car at Riverside clearly show that his helmet was unblemished. His head did *not* hit the wall. It is very likely that he died of basal skull fracture...like Earnhardt and many others. The window net came into mandated use after Petty's wreck at Darlington in 1971.


Typo, you meant 1970.


I actually did mean 1971...because that is when the mandated use of window nets began. But the sentence structure was sloppy. So I have amended it.


Noted! Amended for clarity!
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Firefly



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 808
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:

...I still haven't found a third part hosting site to replace Photobucket, or I would post them directly.


I use Imgur now, rather than pay the ransom to the P Bucket. Free and works great!

With much respect to the O.P., this is a classic Randy's thread. Enjoy the ride!
_________________
Bill Jobson is my real name.
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67 Fairlane



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 125
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:

I still haven't found a third part hosting site to replace Photobucket, .


Doc (& anyone else who's interested) - I use Fotki; the fees are "silly-cheap", IIRC I paid like $2 for the year!
There's also Flickr and Postimage.org. Have no experience with them but at least one of them is free.

Hope this helps in your search.

Irish Murphy: Good thread. Check out those links; lots of important info out there. The importance of historical context cannot be overstated.

Jerry
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