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Fireball Roberts '57 Ford-windshield wiper or wipers?

 
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JWVD5953



Joined: 06 Nov 2018
Posts: 365
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject: Fireball Roberts '57 Ford-windshield wiper or wipers? Reply with quote

I am finishing up my Revell '57 Ford of Fireball Roberts. My question
is did they use one or two windshield wipers. I have seen pictures and
I can see that it looks like most cars had at least one on the drivers side.
I saw an old home video on You Tube once and they were on a dirt track,
you could see the wipers going to clean the dust and mud off the windshield.
Anyone know if it's one, two or maybe none on super speedway?---John
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john843



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, after poring over a ton of pics from the '57 Southern 500 and other pics from '54- '57, you're right they're all over the place as far as one, two, or none.
Bear in mind that until at least '63 or so, the cars were required to have the wiper MOTORS whether they were running wipers or not. Given that, if they felt a need for a wiper it would be real easy to pop a blade on the spline, hit the set screw and done! So I guess what I'm saying is there's no wrong configuration.
I didn't see nearly as many with two and most all the Southern 500 cars had none but I think this will be a matter of preference and will be right whatever you opt for.

John
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

john843 wrote:

Bear in mind that until at least '63 or so, the cars were required to have the wiper MOTORS whether they were running wipers or not.


I have all of the NASCAR rules books from 59 through 1975. I do not see any requirement that wiper motors remain in place? Don't recall seeing wiper gear on most cars at most races either in period photos. I do remember seeing wiper gear/blades at RIR (due to dusty conditions at that track) and at selected other tracks...where conditions warranted them. Dirt tracks come to mind. And so too, early paved tracks where the asphalt was sketchy and track debris was in abundance. That was a nod to necessity rather than a rules mandated selection.
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john843



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got that from a Junior Johnson interview segment where he was going over the '63 restoration and telling Jeff Hammond(?) about the wiper motor requirement.
I will post the link as soon as I find it but I have no doubt that Dr. Craft is correct. (he does tend to be:)
Don't intend to cause any confusion or post wrong stuff.

John
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john843



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the link to the RK video where Jr. mentions the wiper motor being required to Mike Beam, not Jeff Hammond. It's right around 4:30 or so after Mike asks him about racing with the windows up. Again, sorry if that's wrong but you can hear Jr. say it right here:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU-DXTz8ppo


John
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Memory fades.

Printed rules books and period photos (that do *not* show wiper motors or gear) do not. There's also a recorded Junior Johnson interview (maybe that same one? did not go to the link) where JJ recalls that Carl Kiekhaefer got one of the original 48 Mystery Motors to run in 1963. By 1963 Kiekhaefer had been out of NASCAR competition for most of a decade. Never happened.

With the advent of FB and the WWW, there are now thousands of period photos on line for quick review. You won't find many of GN stock cars with wiper gear (except as noted above).
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john843



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Craft, that is the same interview where JJ mentions that Holman-Moody and Kiekhaefer got a mystery motor. I wondered the first time I saw it about that as I was under the impression that Kiekhaefer was well out of racing by then but wasn't sure if he may not have had some peripheral involvement (funding?) with some team so didn't think much else about it.
The reason he gives for them getting the motors is that Nascar required you to furnish an example of any motor you were running to a competitor for inspection and testing if they requested it. This sounded like something of a logistical nightmare and I'd never heard anything like that before. He did go on to say that the motors allegedly furnished to H-M and Kiekhaefer were stock and had not been built up for racing.
Have you ever heard of any such rule or anything similar?
I could readily believe that a manufacturer would have to turn over an example to Nascar but having to furnish one to any team that requested one seems illogical.

John
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, I was wondering if that was the same interview. Junior was just mis-remembering. He was right about H&M getting a MM. But not because of some NASCAR rule. The MM was obviously NOT a regular production engine. In fact, no MM powered street cars were ever built. GM attempted to use the same ploy it had previously used (with the Super Duty 389 and 421 engines) by claiming the engine was readily available to the buying public *over the counter*. John Holman called GM's bluff by presenting himself, money in hand, at the local Charlotte Chevy dealership, as a regular customer wanting to by a readily available over the counter MM. When GM could not initially produce, Holman quickly made it known far and wide. Ultimately GM did produce a MM for Holman to buy (with Bill France's prodding IIRC). According to period reports, the paint on the engine was still tacky and it was filed with seconds for parts. But that could be embellishment. No doubt H&M quickly took the engine apart to figure out its "mysteries". Here's the best part, GM (per Smokey) only cast up four dozen MMs. And as history records those things were like a grenade with the pin half pulled out. Fast as stink, but prone to blowing up. By the end of the 1963 season JJ and Ray Fox were running low on spare parts..and GM...after its initial show of supporting the engine...had gotten out (finally) of all factory racing in support of the AMA ban GM itself had cooked up in 1957 to beat Ford on the cheap. So, in the irony of ironies, JJ and Fox had to go to H&M to buy back the one MM that had been sold to JH...in order to finish the season.

As to the memory of out heroes...mis-remembering is a common thing I have run into when interviewing them (even when they were younger and more vital). We fans dwell on small details of the cars they built. They did no such thing...even at the time they were running a given car. That car was just a tool to be used to win races. Not something to memorize in every detail. When changes were made, they were made and the teams moved on. At season's end the cars were discarded like yesterday's mail and a new car was built. The old cars certainly were not cherished. Many of our heroes are stunned to find out how revered they and the cars they built are by fans today. The are equally surprised at how much non-racers know about the minute details that guys here at this forum know about a given chassis. This was a common experience for me. When I was writing the Bud Moore bio, I ran into the same thing. Bud would often mix up details between cars and seasons and, without period photos, he'd sometimes get things wrong. Happens all the time. I was just talking with Waddell Wilson and Bobby and Donnie Allison during speedweeks about some of their old cars...WW, for example, was looking at my old Lorenzen Galaxie (on display on Main Street). He told me the car did *not* have the trap door for tire wear observation port that I had fitted it with during restoration. I went home and sent WW home a photo of that very car at Daytona, with Fred sitting in the cockpit that clearly showed the car *did* in fact have that trap door. And so it goes.
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john843



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:
Yep, I was wondering if that was the same interview. Junior was just mis-remembering. He was right about H&M getting a MM. But not because of some NASCAR rule. The MM was obviously NOT a regular production engine. In fact, no MM powered street cars were ever built. GM attempted to use the same ploy it had previously used (with the Super Duty 389 and 421 engines) by claiming the engine was readily available to the buying public *over the counter*. John Holman called GM's bluff by presenting himself, money in hand, at the local Charlotte Chevy dealership, as a regular customer wanting to by a readily available over the counter MM. When GM could not initially produce, Holman quickly made it known far and wide. Ultimately GM did produce a MM for Holman to buy (with Bill France's prodding IIRC). According to period reports, the paint on the engine was still tacky and it was filed with seconds for parts. But that could be embellishment. No doubt H&M quickly took the engine apart to figure out its "mysteries". Here's the best part, GM (per Smokey) only cast up four dozen MMs. And as history records those things were like a grenade with the pin half pulled out. Fast as stink, but prone to blowing up. By the end of the 1963 season JJ and Ray Fox were running low on spare parts..and GM...after its initial show of supporting the engine...had gotten out (finally) of all factory racing in support of the AMA ban GM itself had cooked up in 1957 to beat Ford on the cheap. So, in the irony of ironies, JJ and Fox had to go to H&M to buy back the one MM that had been sold to JH...in order to finish the season.

As to the memory of out heroes...mis-remembering is a common thing I have run into when interviewing them (even when they were younger and more vital). We fans dwell on small details of the cars they built. They did no such thing...even at the time they were running a given car. That car was just a tool to be used to win races. Not something to memorize in every detail. When changes were made, they were made and the teams moved on. At season's end the cars were discarded like yesterday's mail and a new car was built. The old cars certainly were not cherished. Many of our heroes are stunned to find out how revered they and the cars they built are by fans today. The are equally surprised at how much non-racers know about the minute details that guys here at this forum know about a given chassis. This was a common experience for me. When I was writing the Bud Moore bio, I ran into the same thing. Bud would often mix up details between cars and seasons and, without period photos, he'd sometimes get things wrong. Happens all the time. I was just talking with Waddell Wilson and Bobby and Donnie Allison during speedweeks about some of their old cars...WW, for example, was looking at my old Lorenzen Galaxie (on display on Main Street). He told me the car did *not* have the trap door for tire wear observation port that I had fitted it with during restoration. I went home and sent WW home a photo of that very car at Daytona, with Fred sitting in the cockpit that clearly showed the car *did* in fact have that trap door. And so it goes.


Very well said and thanks for the correction.

John
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