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A long time fan finally joins
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Bobby The Cabdriver



Joined: 19 Oct 2018
Posts: 388
Location: " Keep Austin Weird?"ugh...

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

My name is Bobby Hill and I've been looking at this board for many years and I found so many good discussions and informations in the past about what I really care about....
which is late 60s to mid 70s Grand National racing.The topics and the information here is second to none and it was a sad day when I thought this form was no more. The models and modeling tips have been a great inspiration to me and even in the periods of time where I wasn't building I was enjoying the art of the beautiful replicas you guys built.I've learned of great companies like Mike's decals and the true Saga of the Petty Superbirds and now here's where I jump in...I read a post about the K&K lowrider 70 Dodge Charger and from both inside knowledge as well as prior postings on the board people need to remember 1970 was the first year NASCAR allowed fully fabricated chassis... a lot of it having to do with the Don MacTavish crash at Daytona which is not recommended viewing for the weak of heart.I've been very fortunate in my life to be able to spend time with the legendary Kenny Thompson as well as being able to crawl all over cars at the North Carolina Motorsports Hall of Fame in Mooresville unfortunately I'm not a photographer and my time in the early 2000s in North Carolina predated the point-and-shoot cell phone camera.What I would really like to see somebody repost the pictures from the Meet Richard Petty book as well as more pictures of Nichols built as well as pictures of early 70s Wood Brothers Cyclones. Right now I'm kitbashing several cars and making progress on a Yarbrough Laguna,Pearson cyclone and Bobby Isaacs 68 Charger.I'm going to call up Mike and do a order with him tomorrow and I might just pick up a resin Superbird....pictures soon..everybody keep up the good work and guys please let's get these discussions going again. I've learned more about NASCAR history from this site been any book or magazine article I've ever read.I'm proud to finally join this site and looking forward to communicating with the members...
thank you!
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spooker



Joined: 11 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome, it sounds like you'll be a good fit here!

Brian
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Firefly



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
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Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome. Looking forward to following your work!
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where does it say in the 1970 Nascar rule book that they allowed fully fabricated chassis? Just curious...
Thanks.
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The NASCAR rules book *did not* provide for fully fabricated chassis in 1970...or for some years following. The rules book ( *Frames*, P. 14b) provides in material part: "Frames may be modified for tire clearance if similar to original equipment in design, appearance, and dimensions..." Even after the official rules allowed fabricated snouts front and rear, it still required stock side rails to be used...in lip service to the requirement for "stock" chassis. As history records, fully fabricated chassis were not allowed in the GN/WC ranks until mid-seventies earliest. Don Mactavish's horrific 1969 Sportsman crash had nothing to do with chassis rules changes so far as I have ever heard...or as are reflected in history. DM was driving a half chassis Cyclone in the 69 Permatex race (origin unknown, though Smokey supposedly did some work on the car). That same style of Fomoco chassis (which featured a Galaxie based front frame snout from the firewall forward mated to the rear half of a Fomoco intermediate unit body) continued to be built and raced by Holman Moody through the 1970 season. Until 1972, in fact (though H&M was on the sidelines after Fomoco's withdrawal from racing in 1971) when OEM Fomoco intermediates shifted regular production from unit construction to full perimeter frames. The first customer car Banjo Matthews built upon setting up shop in 1972(for Bud Moore upon his return to NASCAR from SCCA-T/A) was based on a full Torino frame that had been fitted with a Galaxie based fabricated snout. The frame from just aft of the snout back was stock Torino based...not fully fabricated. I can only speak about the Fomoco side of the equation. I am sure that ODCIS can advise when Mopar stock cars went to fully fabricated frames...I do not know...but I know that they, also, did NOT use them in 1970.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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Location: " Keep Austin Weird?"ugh...

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

You are obviously a Ford guy what I do know is when Petty took over the Mopar contract they were allowed to fully fabricate their chassis as we all know Richard Petty received favorable treatment for many years from Nascar and when the Petty's took over the Chrysler contract they were allowed to fully fabricate Mopar chassis starting out with the 70 Roadrunner short track car you know the one that has been disguised as a super bird for many years now again this came from old timers that I met while I lived in Mooresville about 15 years ago now if I'm wrong I'll bite my tongue because I personally I've never examined one up close but the pictures of the 71 charger on Mopar dealer I don't see anything that looks like a stock frame rail and that car was built in late 1970 I've had over 200 Mopars in my life and about 75 of them were B bodies I do know about the deal with the frame rails on the sides under the roll cage and how many Fords were we skinned at Chevelles and Laguna's and as far as I know again McTavish home-built car broke in half where stock frame rails were welded together look at the pictures in the meet Richard Petty book or any post 1970 Petty built GN car and for sure they have a fabricated front stub and is the direct predecessor to the kit car chassis
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do not believe you are right about the Mopars either. From what I recall the first two 1970 Petty Plymouths were actually built by Nichels (from bodies in white...and not fabricated from bar stock...One of those cars survives today now correctly dressed in RP livery btw. I have looked it over closely. Not a fabricated chassis car. I have not closely examined the two replica birds...one of which you reference...but photos of the Darlington crash RR do not support your contention).Greg (ODCIS) will know for sure. And he will also be able to advise when if ever the first Mopar chassis were allowed to be built from bar stock. As noted the NASCR rules book did not allow that in 1970...or 1971. If it happened , it was later than 1970

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Bobby The Cabdriver



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Location: " Keep Austin Weird?"ugh...

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

The car Petty crashed at the spring Darlington was Nichols as was both the Superbirds the car in the meet Richard Petty book was set up very similar to The Hairy Hyde lowrider and again is far as I know is the first fully fabricated Mopar GN car it is not a Nichols car and it's the car that became the Superbird that everybody knows so well that was actually converted in 74 or 75 I don't want to cast doubt upon the king but that Roadrunner won a bunch of races and Richard ran it all the way till the end of 71 it was such a good car and the first car built in house rather than a Nichols car that they converted it into the super bird to be used as a show car the sad thing is as I've read here and on other sites is when they found the Hamilton Superbird and restored it using the term loosely they made changes in the Nichols chassis to match the petty chassis in the Superbird that again actually is the first Petty built chassis and won a bunch of races
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Bobby The Cabdriver



Joined: 19 Oct 2018
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Location: " Keep Austin Weird?"ugh...

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:30 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

The meet Richard Petty LP came out late in 1970 complete with an ad for 71 340 Dusters in the back of the book it has pictures of the Nickels car that petty crashed at Darlington as well as pictures of the 70 Roadrunner short track car being fabricated out of panels on a chassis jig which looks just like the kit car chassis jigs plus the cage in that car is different from any Nichols car I've seen the Richard Petty Superbird that exists does not have a Nichols chassis in it as well as many things that were done that were not legal in 1970 the Hamilton Superbird is a Nichols chassis and was restored incorrectly there are videos and pictures of the late 70 Petty Roadrunner out there including a fan appreciation day in mid 72 as well as I believe pictures of the car in the background in the Motor Trend cover story about Petty in mid75 is that Roadrunner being converted into a Superbird some of the old-timers I've talked to in Mooresville flat out told me that NASCAR allowed fabricate the first panel built GN cars and the pictures in the meet Richard Petty book prove it
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobby, You have become something of a moving target. You first stated...without qualification...that in 1970, NASCAR allowed teams (of all stripes) to build fully fabricated chassis ("... people need to remember 1970 was the first year NASCAR allowed fully fabricated chassis").

Those are your words.
That is not so.

You went on to say that this was related to the Don Mactavish crash in 1969.

It follows, that is also not so.

Now you are talking about things that happened in 1975. Pardon me, but that is changing the subject.

This place has always been about getting history right (as NASCAR pays so very little attention to its own history).

In this case, getting history right means acknowledging that you are wrong about fabricated chassis during the 1970 season.

That did not happen on the Fomoco side and, based on what I know about the Mopar cars of the day, it also did not happen on that side of the ledger.

Certainly not on the cars that survive, to include the Petty Superbird that was recently restored, the Ramo Stott Superbird that is an incredible survivor. The restored 1971 RP Road Runner and so on.

The pictures of the RR RP crashed at Darlington (when it was upside down) appear to show that car had a stock (but reinforced) intermediate unit body including floor pans and cross members.

As mentioned, It was later in the 70s when NASCAR first allowed chassis fully fabricated front raw steel tubing (with no stock components) to be campaigned.

That didn't happen on the Fords until the mid seventies (when NASCAR finally permitted teams to forego the use of stock side rails). *For sure*.

Just right now I am not sure of any Mopars were built that way. But ODCIS and perhaps Doug Schellinger can chime in as this is their area.

Photographs don't lie and they never forget or mis-remember. This is doubly the case with the cars that survive. And this is irrespective of what you say that some old timers have told you.

I guess I do not understand the point you are trying to make regarding the photo on an album cover. Guessing now...But if you believe that a shot of a unit body car being rebodied is proof that the car rolls on a fully fabricated frame...that is not so either. Unit construction cars could be and were completely rebodied after their initial construction (and race modifications). Perhaps you have seen the photos of the 67 Fairlanes (unit body cars) being completely rebodied at season's end into 1968 Torinos.

ODCIS is currently in he middle of a complete rebody of his record setting 200 MPH Daytona..from the 1971 Charger tin it last raced in...back to the way it looked in 1969 at Talladega. I myself am in the middle of a rebody of HM8-033S. That chassis started out as Hutch's 1967 H&M Fairlane and then was rebodied by H&M into Bobby Allison's 1968 H&M Torino. It remains a uni-body car...rather than a fully fabricated frame car.

Too bad all of the photos that used to be available on this forum were lost or I could direct you to them. I no longer have a photo bucket account or I would repost shots for your reference.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

I'm sorry you're absolutely right I did state that NASCAR allowed fabricated frames across the board that's a mistake. Can anybody clarify if there was any stock frame rails in the cars by Petty Enterprises from that late 70 Roadrunner the first car they fully fabricated onwards? I've been told there wasn't and I've seen pictures of other Petty built cars where it sure doesn't look at either in particular the one in detail on the Mopar Trader site which is documented as Buddy Bakers 71 Daytona 500 Charger. I'm aware of as the way it's been put the wink towards stock chassis by using frame rails from door jamb to door jamb through to the late 70s but I had heard from people who were there that the Petty's were using fully fabricated cars starting out with that 70 Roadrunner the one that may or may not be in the background in, I believe, the May 75 cover story in Motor Trend Magazine being worked on. I read on this site in fact a few years ago the same thing besides hearing it from people who were there. There are many differences in between the Petty 70 Superbird show car that's been sitting in the Petty Museum and Ramos's Nickels car.And if you dont believe the late 1970 Roadrunner short track car in the meet Richard Petty book isn't a panel car and then it wasn't fabricated at Petty's and it's not significantly different then a Nichols chassis car I'm sorry about that too. Mopar fans help! The Ford guys are ganging up on me! And if any of you doesn't believe that the king got a big break from Nascar on a regular basis during those days take a look at the 68 Daytona 500 Roadrunner with the "vinyl top"! Yellow banana and Smokey be damned!
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Aero426



Joined: 17 May 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Here is the mid-1970 short track car under construction from the Meet RP record album. Appears to be a hybrid still utilizing a heavily cannibalized body in white. It would be great to see a high res version of this photo, which to date has not surfaced. There must have been others taken as well.

Having not seen the car on a lift, or upside down, it is hard to comment on the rails used, other than Mopar rails began to be modified as early as the 1964 1/2 race cars (designed by Chrysler Engineering) and in particular the 1965 Engineering race car. So the process of modifying a factory rail was not a new concept.


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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like that cowl is sitting on stock rockers to me.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



Joined: 19 Oct 2018
Posts: 388
Location: " Keep Austin Weird?"ugh...

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Thank you Aero 426! Are there any stock frame rails in this the 70 Roadrunner being built in mid to late 1970 at Petty Enterprises in the Meet Richard Petty book? That sure looks like a panel car to me and after all the roadrunners and satellites and chargers and coronets that I've had I can't ever remember front frame rails that look like that is this a fully fabricated car that NASCAR look the other way at or what? And please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the same car that the Petty's turned into a Superbird around 1975?
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Firefly



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Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Bobby The Cabdriver wrote:
You are obviously a Ford guy ...

Very Happy
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked again at the Mopardealer site, it's been a few years since I visited since there were no updates. That car sure looks like it was built on a stock unibody to me. Note how the rear kickups are the factory hat sections welded to the floorpan, not a fabricated tubing rear clip.



Those look like the factory style torsion bar crossmember and rear crossmember in the floor:



For what it's worth, here's a photo of Junior Johnson's '71 Monte Carlo. Factory kickups notched for axle clearance:

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Aero426



Joined: 17 May 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Bobby The Cabdriver wrote:
Thank you Aero 426! Are there any stock frame rails in this the 70 Roadrunner being built in mid to late 1970 at Petty Enterprises in the Meet Richard Petty book? That sure looks like a panel car to me and after all the roadrunners and satellites and chargers and coronets that I've had I can't ever remember front frame rails that look like that is this a fully fabricated car that NASCAR look the other way at or what? And please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the same car that the Petty's turned into a Superbird around 1975?


We are evolving towards a total build from the bottom up. We are not quite there yet, This is April 1971 at PE. I still see a body in white with full rockers attached.

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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Bobby The Cabdriver wrote:
...some of the old-timers I've talked to in Mooresville flat out told me that NASCAR allowed fabricate the first panel built GN cars and the pictures in the meet Richard Petty book prove it


Don't tell me, let me guess...

Those are the old timers that hang around the Memory Lane "Museum", or perhaps the ones who just finished the replica Allison Daytona?
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

April 1971.

Stamped rear rail. Modified stock inner wheelhouse.

Now, what appears to be true, is that this rear clip was built on a jig outside the body shell. Similar to what is shown in the 1974 Chrysler circuit parts catalog.

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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would make sense, it would allow them to pull the stamped rails inboard for tire clearance. The Hueytown-built Allison Monte Carlos had 1" removed from the outboard side of the rear kickups for the same reason.
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom M. wrote:
That would make sense, it would allow them to pull the stamped rails inboard for tire clearance. The Hueytown-built Allison Monte Carlos had 1" removed from the outboard side of the rear kickups for the same reason.


So, too, the frames on the 1965 +66 H&M Galaxies, Tom.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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Location: " Keep Austin Weird?"ugh...

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:01 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

So where do we draw the line in between a factory stamped frame rail going in a jig that met or may not be an assembly line piece and a fully fabricated racing piece? I did mention earlier about jigs at Petty Enterprises and yes I am familiar with mr. Beam and mr. Hayes but no my information does not come from them my information comes from people who were there who I sought out I was very lucky to become friends with somebody who's been involved with restoring mostly Ford race cars and no this information didn't come from him either as a lifelong Chrysler enthusiast and I don't mean just NASCAR I've always had questions about the how's and why's of things and there was in those days a lot of resentment towards Richard Petty and his success and factory backing and some of those bad feelings still continued in the time I was down there which is now almost 20 years ago I got to meet and in a few cases become friends with people who built race cars back in the day not misrepresent show cars at Barrett-Jackson
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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Location: " Keep Austin Weird?"ugh...

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:11 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

And in no way is that a stock torsion bar crossmember in the Baker charger restoration pictures
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:51 pm    Post subject: Re: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Bobby The Cabdriver wrote:
And in no way is that a stock torsion bar crossmember in the Baker charger restoration pictures


I don't think anyone suggested it was. The torsion bar crossmember got wider front to back in 1970. But it had not been stock prior to that either. it just got beefier.
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The letter at the following link states that according to Harry Hyde, the mid-year 1970 Road Runner (the current trophy room Superbird) had fabricated front frame rails. The letter was penned by Harry to his boss, Nord Krauskopf to document rule enforcement inconsistencies in 1970 and to date in 1971.

It is easy to see why K & K built their own cars in-house moving forward and why Harry/Nord would refuse to buy new cars from PE.

http://www.superbirdclub.com/Hyde-1970-Complaints.html
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:
Tom M. wrote:
That would make sense, it would allow them to pull the stamped rails inboard for tire clearance. The Hueytown-built Allison Monte Carlos had 1" removed from the outboard side of the rear kickups for the same reason.


So, too, the frames on the 1965 +66 H&M Galaxies, Tom.


I think Junior did that to the Monte Carlo frames as well, he would have been aware of that trick with the Fords. There's no evidence that he notched the kickups like Allison did on his builds.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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Location: " Keep Austin Weird?"ugh...

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Sweet redemption! Stock Mopar torsion bar crossmember don't stick an inch above the level of the floor pan.But kit car ones do.Those rear frame rails still look pretty Square to me,stock ones have more rounded Corners than these and there's plenty of reproduction ones for sale out there from companies like AMD and Goodmark as well as ones that are used that have been cut out from cars on eBay. They also have access holes in them which are there to allow gases to escape when they are spot welded together on the assembly line. So now that we have clarified that my information is not false and NASCAR did allow the Petty's 70 Roadrunner which was highly illegal to race and the first car that they fully fabricated,my sources told me that the MacTavish crash was a great concern to them and things changed or at least discussion started of things changing in the name of safety and unibody race cars.
I love you guys each and everyone of you we all share a passion for the high-water point in the 20th century American car industry and as I started out this thread I said I'm proud to be finally on here..... now if I can figure out how to post pictures from my Android phone....
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Bobby The Cabdriver wrote:
...my sources told me that the MacTavish crash was a great concern to them and things changed or at least discussion started of things changing in the name of safety and unibody race cars.


I don't think the narrative of the MacTavish car (a home built) carries any water in how Chrysler GN cars were built.

If the Petty car was built using fabricated front rails as Hyde alleges, it was likely to get the dimensions they wanted. I don't see it as a safety issue.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:13 am    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

If you go back to the beginning of the thread it was one of the things that I bought up about unibody race cars
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

A motivated person could have a few beers in the Checkered Flag on Old Concord road down the road apiece from Tiger's and Buck's shops or Kenny's pit stop out by the drag strip or Twin Peaks in Denver and write a book about the true history of NASCAR.... 20 years ago... I'm a firm believer in Reporting the true history of NASCAR and unfortunately a lot of it is been washed away in the sands of time and I really wish that I was motivated enough at that time to document some of the things I heard from the guys who were there,who helped build the sport,the ones that won championships as well as the ones who struggled week-to-week. The sons of bootleggers who got $200 off a used pickup truck because they knew somebody at Holman & Moody or the Pettys.What we have instead are counterfeit cars built by Kim Haynes sitting in the Nascar Hall of Fame and Video Productions so full of errors and romanticism been a lot of the real story has been lost.One of my favorite scenes out of all the Nascar videos I've seen is the scene in Hard Chargers with I believe it's Elmo Soapy and a few other so called independents talking about their involvement in the sport.Sure, people like Junior Johnson and Richard Petty deserve to have movies made about them but 30 to 40 cars started the race every week and every one of them was a story.
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobby I suggest you dial the attitude back a little bit. It's great to ask questions but you're coming off as argumentative with two of the foremost experts on NASCAR construction from that era. That carries more weight here than what some unknown expert may have said at some point.
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would second that sentiment, Tom. There is only one chance to make a first impression. And, very often first impressions are *last* impressions.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Picking a fight is not my intention at all!! ! I stated prior I love you guys and what you do sorry if I've offended anybody but have I really said anything to offend anybody? We are all on the same page I hope maybe we're all just reading it differently and maybe I should just go back to reading this forum.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Picking a fight is not my intention at all!! ! I stated prior I love you guys and what you do.. sorry if I've offended anybody but have I really said anything to offend anybody? We are all on the same page. I hope maybe we're all just reading it differently and maybe I should just go back to reading this forum.
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

[quote="Bobby The Cabdriver"] Sweet redemption!

Really?

Where on any page or in any picture of what Doug posted do you find proof that NASCAR allowed anyone to use "fully fabricated chassis" (your term) in 1970?

Assembling a chassis from factory unit body stampings that are reinforced and or augmented for racing is not the same as building a fully fabricated chassis.

*That* process would involve...as the words you chose suggest.... building a chassis *completely* (synonym for fully) from raw steel tubing and sheet metal....without the use of factory components.

That most certainly did NOT happen in 1970 as you initially contended.

Might have happened later. But that is not at issue.

As Doug's very interesting postings document, the process of non stock chassis fabrication that NASCAR allowed to start with the "legalization" of the first half chassis H&M Fairlanes in 1966 continued apace in the GN ranks into the 70s.

That said, in 1970, complete NASCAR chassis (even the "cheater" chassis you decry in the mid 70 Petty RR) were still *clearly* firmly tethered to Factory chassis stampings as their starting point.

The days when a chassis builder could commence race car construction with just a random assortment of steel tubing and sheetmetal stock on the shop floor were still in the future in 1970. You will recall, that is the season that your post focused on.

There just doesn't seem to be any more doubt about that fact.

There *never* was on the Fomoco side of the equation.

Doug's posts put paid to your claims on the Mopar side of the equation in 1970 as well.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins okay you win Reply with quote

Okay you win my only question is as I asked previously where is the line in between assembly line frame rail and a factory stamped frame rail that looks similar?
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what I consider to be a fabricated frame rail. Can anyone identify what it is from?

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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Judging by the Magnum in the background the front leaf spring mounts and the general size and shape of it it is obviously a rear clip fabricated to use Mopar leaf springs
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

As we go further and further away from The Darkside forum I do have a question when they downsized in 81 and the Petty's built a Mirada did it have leaf springs? And if it did did the Buick that Richard one the 81 Daytona 500 with that I have read was the Mirada reskinned have Mopar leaf springs? I have also heard Harry Hyde used a lot of mopar parts on his Chevys when Stacy had him switch over to Chevrolet did Petty's Buick and Hyde's Chevys have torsion bars and leaf Springs?
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Bobby The Cabdriver wrote:
I have also heard Harry Hyde used a lot of mopar parts on his Chevys when Stacy had him switch over to Chevrolet did Petty's Buick and Hyde's Chevys have torsion bars and leaf Springs?


Hyde used Mopar rear ends. He had all the 8 3/4" gear sets. Doubt he used torsion bars and leafs on the Chevys.

The Mirada was reskinned to a Buick right after the Daytona test. I don't think it was a torsion bar/leaf car. But someone can correct me if I am wrong.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

I think I kicked off a great discussion and again sorry if I upset anybody again I'm glad that this site is back the wealth of knowledge on here is priceless and if somebody could p.m. me and tell me how I could get pictures out of my Android phone to post being since I don't have a PC I'd much appreciate it I may be a little younger than some of you but nobody's more old school than me! I would have been much better off being born in 37 or 47 rather than 67!
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jim unger



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome aboard, you sound like a great fit for this foreum.
Jim
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Mark C.



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum, Bobby.

As a long time reader and occasional poster to the forum, I can say that there has been much debate over the years, and this thread seems to have that flavour to it.

I have no horse in the race, but I will say that when one thinks "fully fabricated chassis", one thinks about today's race cars, where the builder starts with a pile of raw materials and welds it all into something that looks and works like a race car not even vaguely resembles something that could have at some point been roughly related to a production car. Basically nothing, including architecture, that has been carried over from a current production vehicle. At least that's how I think when I hear that term.

The Mopar race cars shown in the building stage do not approach that level in my mind. They appear to be basically modified production vehicles, albeit assembled in pieces by the builder, but using many production pieces and some modified or strengthened pieces to make it safer and raceworthy, but still following the basic architecture and layout... and concept... of the production chassis. Development of the race car chassis happened gradually, and in bits and pieces, as durability and safety of the production pieces started to show their weakness, sometimes with tragic results. So, roll cages were added, heavy duty parts like hubs and other suspension parts, extra shocks, strengthened front frames, etc.

But, essentially production-based, even if not fully stock. As much as I like Mopars of the golden era, if racers actually had the choice of building fully fabricated chassis back then, there is no way in heck that they would choose longitudinal torsion bars and leaf springs when coils and truck arms seemed to be the superior set-up. So... I don't really see the evidence presented as 'sweet redemption', but more a battle of semantics.

Regardless of opinions, it has been an interesting discussion, and one that brings out all kinds of interesting tidbits of information and photos. So, keep it coming! These discussions are really the meat of this forum.
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Bobby The Cabdriver wrote:
Judging by the Magnum in the background the front leaf spring mounts and the general size and shape of it it is obviously a rear clip fabricated to use Mopar leaf springs


And that dovetails with what Mike Hill has told me, that to the best of his memory the stock rails were no longer required starting around '78. Although that doesn't really look like a NASCAR clip, the Pettys built drag chassis around that time also and it could be the back half for a Pro Stock chassis.

To answer your question, no Mopar could run with coil springs and no car with factory coils could race with leaf springs in the '70s. Holman-Moody built a kit to convert their half chassis Fords to rear trailing arms so they could be reskinned with GM or later Ford sheetmetal after the leaf spring cars aged out of eligibility at the end of the '73 season. The Petty Mirada/Buick was a front steer, four coil car that was either a Laughlin or copy.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:25 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Yes the Pettys were involved with drag racing mostly through the Roy Hill operation but by 1978 leaf springs were dead issue in Pro Stock.Even ladder Bars were on the way out.4-link suspension as the Don Ness design with coilovers were pretty much standard Fair by 78.In fact it was Mopars dominance in Pro Stock that led to fully fabricated Chevy and Ford panel cars dominating by 1973 and by the way if coils and truck arms were standard practice,why did teams like the Wood Brothers stick with leaf springs under cars like the 7071 Cyclones that came from the factory with coils? Now am I wrong about this? I'm 98% sure that I've seen pictures of the 21 Cyclone with leaf springs. And I as a big fan of vintage Pro Stock and being old enough to see the greats like Sox Martin Dick Landy and the Motown missile,the true story is these cars were much more stock in the early days (1970/1971) then anything run in NASCAR and it wasn't until the NHRA lobbying against the Mopar Hemi racers that allowed fully fabricated race cars in Pro Stock. Let's not get it twisted I am a lifelong Richard Petty fan but my disgust with NASCAR is deep and very personal. My personal opinion is they operate not like organized crime but as organized crime. What they've done to the sport that we all love is disgusting. Is it any Wonder that the stands are empty. The thing is when they were allowing a modified stock platform Mopar IE the Nickels chassis, it was a much more even playing field. When Chrysler turned to only supporting Petty Enterprises and NASCAR looked the other way at things the Petty's were doing that weren't very far off of the things that Smokey was doing, it ran almost all the other Chrysler Racers out of the sport. If you don't believe me read Aero 426 posting again.
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Last edited by Bobby The Cabdriver on Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:31 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

........hmmm.....
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Last edited by Bobby The Cabdriver on Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:33 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Let's talk about Richards 68 Daytona 500 car. The "vinyl top"Road Runner. How about you guys tell me about it? Dr. Craft, you're restoring a car that raced against this thing! How about you tell us about Richards 68 Roadrunner vinyl top car?
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:52 pm    Post subject: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

One last thing, if a frame rail is fabricated to look like a factory frame rail and it has no roots in anything on the assembly line and in fact was offered a few years later as a specialty racing piece, does that make it a stock frame rail? And if racing was your business, and like all businesses the goal is to make money, and the sanctioning body was willing to give you a break because of your popularity, wouldn't you take it?
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some strange reason...your speculation (in order to "win" an argument) that someone invested the significant money needed to purchase a stamping machine (a BIG piece of hardware) for the purpose of creating non factory original, stamped frame rails...reminds me of that age old aviation question involving a frog and wings...

I'm out.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: A long time fan finally joins Reply with quote

Bobby The Cabdriver wrote:
...and by the way if coils and truck arms were standard practice,why did teams like the Wood Brothers stick with leaf springs under cars like the 7071 Cyclones that came from the factory with coils?


Because, as I stated in my post, NASCAR required the same type suspension (whether that was coils, leaf springs, torsion bars) as the street version through the end of the big car era. So the '70-'71 bodystyle Fords and Mercurys had no choice in the matter, they had to run coils in front and leaf springs in the rear. As I also stated, when these chassis aged out of eligibility due to the three year rule they were occasionally reskinned with GM or '72-newer Ford sheetmetal which necessitated a conversion to rear coils. Holman-Moody offered a kit for the Ford chassis they had built which would convert those cars to truck arms and rear coils so they could be updated.
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