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Question or 2 on the JoHan "Petty" Superbird

 
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sentsat71



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:03 am    Post subject: Question or 2 on the JoHan "Petty" Superbird Reply with quote

Have what I'm guessing is the 1st re-issue of the JoHan Superbird kit.

Would an old MPC NASCAR kit frame work? Have a MPC Southern Stocker Grand Prix kit.

I am NOT looking to build a detailed replica, but not wanting to grind away on the kit chassis. Just wanting to throw something together (someday)


Right or wrong, I like the Jo-Han version over the Revell/Momogram issue, namely 1/25th vs.1/24th


Something that could be displayed with the MPC NASCAR Dick Brooks #22 Dodge

Daytona, which was built right out of the box back in the early '70's when it came out,

the the MPC generic chassis.




Thanks
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DaveVan



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The old MPC chassis will work.....but the Southern Stocker version is so cut up it may not. I'd find the recent Allison/Woods Mercury as it has been restored back like the old MPC kits. A PL Charger might be better.
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Bill J



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would use an AMT 68 Roadrunner or 69 GTX chassis. Much closer to real life.
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AdamtheWayne



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill J wrote:
I would use an AMT 68 Roadrunner or 69 GTX chassis. Much closer to real life.
That'd be my move.
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to see how a Salvino Olds fits under there, it's more Mopar than GM.
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DaveVan



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom M. wrote:
You might want to see how a Salvino Olds fits under there, it's more Mopar than GM.
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing very true!
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Johan Richard Petty Superbird Reply with quote

Okay you provoked me now! LOL!( every time I make a joke I have to put LOL in because I might upset somebody these days) first off, the idea of using a polar lights charger kit for anything but the differential cooler is a terrible idea. Second, while I don't have a salvino Oldsmobile yet( I'm a blue-collar guy struggling to pay my bills and Mike is holding one for me till I get my next paycheck) it is an MPC based chassis. What I do know about the chassis is they did away with the god awful Square transmission tunnel. MPC did not produce a Mopar chassis. The MPC chassis is much closer to a Ford Chassis, a pre 72 with leaf springs. If you want this thing to look good sitting next to your original Brooks Daytona, get a Model King Laguna because there is a lot of extra Crush panels (the sheet metal in between the body and the chassis) in that kit and that kit has a chassis that is almost identical to the original MPC chassis. I personally would use the heads and valve covers from the current AMT country charger which is the direct descendant of the annuals, the Isaac Daytona,and the Dukes of Hazzard General Lee's. The only thing different on the MPC engines from car to car was the cylinder heads and valve covers and where they instructed you to put the distributor on the intake manifold . In fact if anybody was looking to build an accurate Bobby Isaac Daytona, for doing any kind of curbside build (because this kit has separate rear end and leaf springs) or restoring any Mopar b-body annual kits, grab one of these. If you want to make a perfect mate to your Brooks Daytona, use the right parts. My vote is for Model King Laguna, can anybody tell us if the MPC Pepsi car is same kit? And if you don't want the engine in your Johan Superbird send it to me! That kit has the best 69to71 Street Hemi air cleaner( perfect for replacing the turd of an air cleaner in the Revell 70 Charger R/T), Carter AFB carbs, valve covers, the only accurate short track single 4 Barrel Hemi intake ever in a model kit and almost perfect early Race Hemi headers. If it wasn't for the molded in starter and fuel pump , and the holes for the front axle it would still be the best Hemi ever in a model kit. It even has casting numbers on the side of the block!
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DaveVan



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salvino's did away with the MPC square trans driveshaft tunnel and replaced it with one big enough for a 1/16 scale transmission. There is no perfect model on the market.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:03 am    Post subject: Johan Richard Petty Superbird Reply with quote

Dave van! I'm sure you're not getting up to go to work like me, let's hear about your all-nighter! Threshing on some new decals for the polar lights charger?!? LOL!
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Gary66
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm sure you're not getting up to go to work like me


Really?
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sentsat71



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the comments....greatly appreciate them!

Have agree with DaveVan, there is no perfect race car kit, NASCAR or other wise, except maybe the old original Monogram sprints when they first came out, the other would be the Gurney Eagle Indy cars.

however, MPC was probably the first ones to try and create more correct chassis for their NASCAR stocks of the early '70's, though generic enough to be used for various body styles. though not accurate. Though for me, even back then, those chassis were more accurate than what AMT put out.

Then too, like i mentioned in the original post, I'm not looking for a 100% correct chassis, which is where the Allison Mercury might be the way for me to go......

Just have to come up with the $$$$ for either the Allison/Woods kits or a Polar Lights Dodge kit.....had a couple or so of the Polar Lights kits several years ago, but unloaded them somewhere.....
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Johan Richard Petty Superbird Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure the MPC round 2 reissue Pepsi Laguna has the same chassis and being since it's not really a licensed car, (the original Kit had number 54 on it and was based on a real car driven somewhat unsuccessfully by Lennie Pond so they changed the number for the second run,I had both in another life) is probably your best bet. I haven't picked up the reissue MPC Torino yet but it also should have the same chassis. I'm not aware of a price jump on the Allison Mercury yet but I'm sure it's coming.
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Mark C.



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary66 wrote:
Quote:
I'm sure you're not getting up to go to work like me


Really?


Yeah... What the heck is that supposed to mean??
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill J wrote:
I would use an AMT 68 Roadrunner or 69 GTX chassis. Much closer to real life.


I agree with Bill J, those kits are an excellent starting point. However, you'll have to kit bash, and scratch build race items to get it close to correct. You might be able to use some NASCAR race goodies from the Lindy '64 Petty kit, the engine is close, but not the correct intake, or air cleaner. You could also use the roll cage, front, and rear hoop from an early AMT kit. Just some thoughts. maybe have to use a PLs kit, but the cage, and hoops are a bit heavy, and appear more 1/24 scale, than the scale you're building in. Just some observations from past MoPar race builds. Does the JoHan kit have the "bathtub" hemi race intake, and triangular shaped race air cleaner?
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind that the Nichels built Birds were unibodies, like all the other cars Nichels made in the 60's, early 70s.

The cars had the cage, and any areas that needed strengthening, built into the basic body shell.

That being said, the original Johan "under chassis" would be the most correct place to start.
The Petty Birds used an "X" brace under the chassis, like the Baker Show Car Daytona, the K&K Daytona in the Museum and the Engineering Daytona #88.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject: Johan Richard Petty Superbird Reply with quote

The problem with the Johan chassis is it's a promo Style with a cutout for the engine. Everything is molded in including the exhaust and the rear end and leaf springs. All Johan Mopars with the exception of the Sox & Martin Cuda have this style of chassis. Another alternative that could be very simple to pull off could be the recent Revell 70 Dodge Charger RT, which also has about the best Hemi available in a kit. It has a much simpler front end then the earlier issues 68 69 and Daytona which makes it easier to lower. Not easy, just easier. A good source for an 8 3/4 rear end would be the reissued Revell 67 Plymouth GTX which also has a really nice set of Hooker super competition headers, but I'm going to stick to my guns and state again if you got an original MPC Brooks Daytona and you want the two cars to look good together, get one of the MPC reissue kits. Isaac Torino, Donnie Allison Mercury or Pepsi Laguna.
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Johan Richard Petty Superbird Reply with quote

Bobby The Cabdriver wrote:
I'm going to stick to my guns and state again if you got an original MPC Brooks Daytona and you want the two cars to look good together, get one of the MPC reissue kits. Isaac Torino, Donnie Allison Mercury or Pepsi Laguna.


But those kits don't have the torsion bar suspension that the MoPar rides ran during that time period, or, as you noted, the correct rear differential. To be a close to correct build, it's been my experience that it's a kit bash, mishmash, twisting road to get there. It'd be nice to have a completely correct race car kit for these rides. My big question has always been, how much different were Nichel's, and Petty's builds. I know they each had their own unique variations to their builds, but really how much different?
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Johan Richard Petty Superbird Reply with quote

"Fireball" wrote:
My big question has always been, how much different were Nichel's, and Petty's builds. I know they each had their own unique variations to their builds, but really how much different?


The two Petty Superbirds were received by PE as "partials" from Nichels. This means the unibody, cage and underbody structure was completed on the jig at Nichels. So for modeling purposes, they would be identical.
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Johan Richard Petty Superbird Reply with quote

Aero426 wrote:
"Fireball" wrote:
My big question has always been, how much different were Nichel's, and Petty's builds. I know they each had their own unique variations to their builds, but really how much different?


The two Petty Superbirds were received by PE as "partials" from Nichels. This means the unibody, cage and underbody structure was completed on the jig at Nichels. So for modeling purposes, they would be identical.


And be aware that the two Nichels chassis that Petty received were both slightly different from each other. The Hamilton chassis had straight passenger side door bars that were visible on the inside of the car, they were inboard of the door panel. The Petty car had the passenger side door bars curved out into the door on the passenger side.
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So,...all MoPar Chassis race cars originated at Nichel's facility, correct?
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Fireball" wrote:
So,...all MoPar Chassis race cars originated at Nichel's facility, correct?


This is how it was supposed to work. But there were exceptions. The Pettys were able to build their own cars throughout the 1960's, and did so with components supplied through Nichels. The reason the Superbirds were framed at Nichels was the short lead time coming back to Chrysler at the end of 1969.

In the early days of the Chrysler program (63-66) some cars were built by individual teams like COG and Norm Nelson from tear downs of assembly line cars. These again would use components that flowed through Nichels.
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention that guys all over the country built home made cars.
Just because it's an old Mopar stock car does not mean Nichels built it!

One has to know what to look for, when researching old vintage tin.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Johan Richard Petty Superbird Reply with quote

And now this is running dead into the other post," a longtime fan finally joins".[/u]
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... the question arises for me at least. When exactly did the MoPar teams start eliminating/modifying the k-members, and front frame rails on the NASCAR builds? With the introduction of the 426 c.i. Hemi engine to NASCAR?
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Fireball" wrote:
So... the question arises for me at least. When exactly did the MoPar teams start eliminating/modifying the k-members, and front frame rails on the NASCAR builds? With the introduction of the 426 c.i. Hemi engine to NASCAR?


The cars as raced in early 1964 did not handle well. There was a new design car built by Chrysler Engineering during the summer that we will call the 1964.5 car The front and rear wheel center lines were moved one inch forward. The engine was moved one inch rearward. The rear unibody was dropped one and half inches. These ideas along with a newly designed race suspension became implemented on future builds over a period of time. Petty's car got the improvements ASAP.
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sentsat71



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some very interesting conversations on this post.......


BUT................


Some have not paid attention to my original post.......which is fine.....

I do appreciate all the posts here.....as it has been enlightening......
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill J wrote:
I would use an AMT 68 Roadrunner or 69 GTX chassis. Much closer to real life.


I think this is your best answer in regard to using with the JoHan body. Ditto for the other newer 1/25 street based chassis that have separate exhaust and axle pieces.

Quite a bit of heavy lifting was done in the Doug Dempsey article. You could carry the tips shown as much or little as you choose in your build.

http://randyayersmodeling.com/modelingforum/viewtopic.php?t=673
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:01 pm    Post subject: Johan Richard Petty Superbird Reply with quote

When all is said and done, I completely agree. It is very easy to lower the front end on the AMT Plymouths, they have a pretty nice Hemi in them that you can mix parts from the Johan motor with and the roll cage in the Johan kit, is it really that bad? No it's not.
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sentsat71 wrote:
Some very interesting conversations on this post.......


BUT................


Some have not paid attention to my original post.......which is fine.....

I do appreciate all the posts here.....as it has been enlightening......


JoHan Petty 'Bird, on the Polar Lights Charger chassis would be an almost direct drop in, with most of the race goodies already there between the two kits. Check the wheel bases of the two bodies to make sure that the wheel base lengths are close. That would be the easiest way to go for what you want to do, and close enough to being correct, without a big to do. Sorry to get off your original subject, but we did learn a bit in the process. Hope this helps, and please keep us posted on your progress.
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Wingcar Builder



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried many, but the AMT road runner/Super Bee chassis is the best. soon as I figure out how to post photos I' can show some mods I've done.
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wingcar Builder wrote:
I've tried many, but the AMT road runner/Super Bee chassis is the best. soon as I figure out how to post photos I' can show some mods I've done.


Your mods are the ultimate for a correct build. However, I got a bit carried away, and then looked back at his OP. I think he's going for a close to accurate/easy/quick build. With the least kit bashing, scratching, out of the spares box build, as close to accurate, as he can do. Just my take.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:37 am    Post subject: Johan Petty Superbird Reply with quote

Let's all give a big round of applause to the return of Wingcar Builder! Welcome back! I know, speaking for myself and for many others, the sticky on building a 69/70 era Mopar Grand National Car has inspired many builds and it's helped explain the history and the details of the greatest cars ever to hit the NASCAR circuit. I sincerely hope you allow us in on the completion of one of your incredible builds. Thank you for what you've shared with us already.
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Wingcar Builder



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: Johan Petty Superbird Reply with quote

Bobby The Cabdriver wrote:
Let's all give a big round of applause to the return of Wingcar Builder! Welcome back! I know, speaking for myself and for many others, the sticky on building a 69/70 era Mopar Grand National Car has inspired many builds and it's helped explain the history and the details of the greatest cars ever to hit the NASCAR circuit. I sincerely hope you allow us in on the completion of one of your incredible builds. Thank you for what you've shared with us already.


Thanks, thought I would drop in to see what everyone was building. I haven't been building anything right now because my eyesight has some issues, hopefully it gets better so I can jump back in. just been doing lots of research on chassis' right now.
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sentsat71



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here I thought I was posting for some simple suggestions, but WOW I NEVER thought it would get so intense with ideas, not to mention GREAT discussions on the Chrysler based race cars of that era

While these suggestions, etc. are great and I hope will help others down the road, they are for me, way beyond my expertise and more importantly PATIENCE!

So maybe this will be a big help to others. That's GREAT!!!










Oh, who knows, IF and is say IF were to receive the right offer.......I might.....MIGHT....sell this kit....I don't remember what I paid for it, but I know it was NOT cheap......

However in looking "deeper" into what's in the well beat up box, it is NOT a complete kit. Looks like most of the racing items are not there......but the body looks to be in good shape......
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject: Johan Richard Petty Superbird Reply with quote

If memory serves me correctly, the Johan 69 Roadrunner and 70 Superbird kits contain a roll cage, taped 2 spoke steering wheel, racing dashboard with round gauges, long handle shifter, fire extinguisher, differential cooler and seat belts. Under the hood, there's a dual-plane single 4 barrel intake, a mid-sixties style large air cleaner, a small oil cooler and the best part in the whole kit other than the body, a pair of 64 race Hemi headers carried over from the 64 Petty Plymouth kit. The 69 Roadrunner also has a beautiful pair of Mickey Thompson valve covers. Both kits have slightly under sized Goodyear racing tires, 64 Style Reverse wheels,a gas tank Shield and rear window straps. They also have filler panels for the tail lights and the roadrunner has filler panels for the headlights as well. I also have to mention that the Sox and Martin version of the Superbird does not contain any of these racing parts . For those of you who build stock muscle cars,these kits have absolutely hands down the best 69to71 Hemi/six pack air cleaners and Carter AFB carbs ever in any kit. If I forgotten anything it's cause I'm getting old too. Anybody got a roadrunner at a reasonable price? They're really not that rare. PM me.
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