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69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump?

 
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Bobby The Cabdriver



Joined: 19 Oct 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject: 69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump? Reply with quote

I Now understand what people mean when they say the polar lights Talladega and Cyclone kits are flawed. First off the front track is too narrow and those upper control arms look like lumps. The Boss 429 valve covers hit the roll bar tubing Big Time. I wasn't planning on getting into a lot of work on this kit, with all the flash I had to remove and the massive amount of body work needed. But neither kit oil pan seem to fit, and being since the old library is gone and the links to kit building tips either aren't there or don't cover this topic, what system of oiling was run on the 69 Boss 429? If it matters, and it might, I'm building the Leeroy Yarbrough Junior Johnson cyclone using an older set of decals and a current release Bobby Allison Cyclone kit. And yeah, it's molded in dark red! What I hoped for a nice easy out of the box build is anything but! Help! Knowing the innovator Junior Johnson was, does anybody had detail pictures of this exact car? If it's a dry-sump, any good pictures of the oil tank? Any interior door panel pictures? And because I have an older polar lights decal sheet I can't do a black hood using this sheet, did they run a white Hood car without the side windows anywhere?
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the NASCAR Boss 429 engines were dry sump. The 427 engines were all wet sump in NASCAR, as far as I know.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject: 69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump? Reply with quote

Okay Tom, who's got the pictures? And I'm sure you've built this kit before, what did you do to make it all fit together? I've got the body work and the tubular upper control arms covered, but I'm just a Mopar guy, remember?
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:40 pm    Post subject: 69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump? Reply with quote

I found some great pictures on hotrod.com under the heading of "69 Torino Talladega Aero Warrior"...or something like that... wow, these things got a lot going on that front suspension....
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Barry



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:40 pm    Post subject: Boss 429 oil dry sumps Reply with quote

Hi, Bobby. If you are having trouble building the Polar Lights Cyclone, may I suggest you look just above your posting for Matt McNally's guide to building the Polar Lights Ford. Just click on the link, and follow along as he does a step by step build on how to fix some of the problems of using the Boss 429 engine, and corrections for the exhaust pipes, exhaust dumps, roll bars,etc. This kit can be a bit of a pain, but I used his method when I did the Petty car, and everything worked out fine. Just take your time. Hope this helps, and good luck with the build.

Barry Kennedy
Ontario, Canada
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: 69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump? Reply with quote

Yeah I did try Matt's link and like somebody else before me, it forward me somewhere else and that site said it was not available. In the hot rod story that I found it says in the story that dr. Craft says the car was built in 1970. The biggest thing that I see in that story is that the center of the crossmember has been cut out. Is this correct for a 1969 Holman & Moody chassis? And the headers on this car in the magazine, which is a documented Junior Johnson car, are insane! I don't believe I've ever seen anything like this other than 1964 race Hemi headers with individual tubes running down past the oil pan to a collector by the transmission crossmember. All I wanted was a nice simple out of the box build! Too late! These polar light kits are unbelievably flawed and I would hate to be an inexperienced modeler who's used to putting together monogram NASCAR kits trying to get one of these things to look right. I've already expressed my absolute hatred of the Polar lights Dodge Charger and the MPC 16th scale lump it's based on elsewhere here on this forum so let's not go there. I have a lot of time invested in this cyclone already, might as well go all the way!
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Henryjint



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobby - did you try going here?...http://public.fotki.com/lannyhaas/how-tos/polar_lights_build_up/

Hope this helps.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:03 pm    Post subject: 69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump? Reply with quote

A nice build to be sure, but too out of the box for me.
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Bill J



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Hot Rod article about the 69 Junior Johnson car does show the correct dry sump oil pan and all of the 68 and on Torinos and Cyclones used headers that looked like that. Space was limited and the car had to ride low. This style was used on the 427 FE, 396 FE and the Boss 429. The 429 had a different head end where it bolted to the engine.

Unfortunately, no one ever kitted any correct headers or dry sump pans for the Fords. Never saw a model hemi dry sump pan either, maybe in the 1/16 kits.
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The center section of the crossmember was replaced by a piece that bolted in. I think the later fabricated snouts had that part of the crossmember welded in, there were about three different versions of that part. The entire Galaxie snout was narrowed 2" when repurposed for Fairlane/Torino use.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:35 am    Post subject: 69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump? Reply with quote

Thank you.You got me going in the right direction now, with the hot rod pictures and this info.I could still use some pictures of the oil tank and cooler. A long time ago, I spend some time studying the petty race Hemi in the lobby at Charlotte Motor Speedway, but I'm drawing a blank on the oil pan. I don't have a a dry-sump Mopar project going yet but how about some pictures of a Hemi dry sump pan, being since it was brought up. I really can't remember seeing pictures of a dry-sump NASCAR Hemi pan anywhere.
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Bill J



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

426 hemi dry sump pan
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject: 69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump? Reply with quote

You rule!
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Firefly



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you like those headers on the JJ/Lee Roy car, a similar set was in the AMT '70/'71 Cobra kit. Not easy or cheap to acquire. You might try scratchbuilding them. (something to pull you further down this rabbit hole) Very Happy

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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:03 pm    Post subject: 69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump? Reply with quote

Hey Dave Van! Does this tooling still exist? These old MPC and AMT kits with the simplified chassis and metal axles have more than a simple charm. They still have some of the most accurate body shapes, since most of them are based off of manufacturer approved promos and it's gotten to the point where I'm scared to buy any new Revell models because even with all the detail, they've got some real problems in simple things like Hood lines and wheel wells. I love these reissue kits and I could always kitbash something more accurate together on the chassis and engine side. The Revell Hemi Cuda is a huge disappointment to me. How is the Revell 70 Torino? And would round 2 be willing to do a run of the AMT 70 Torino if the tooling exists? I'm thinking David Pearson/ Holman Moody and Donnie Allison/ Hoss Ellington. Speaking of rare but somewhat less expensive, I think something could be done with the headers in the Johan Pro Stock Maverick/Comet and Cuda. They do pop up on eBay from time to time and they are very nice kits. In fact the Ford twins have both Cammer AND Boss engine options. I wish I still had mine.
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darksidefan2



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those '70 Cobra headers look something like the ones in the AMT '66 Galaxie kit although those have a collector and not 4 separate tubes all the way.
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:56 am    Post subject: 69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump? Reply with quote

The headers in the Johan Pro Stock cars have very long primary tubes that are molded in pairs and with patience and a little Heat I'm sure we could get there. I'm actually bidding on 2 glue bomb Sox & Martin cuda's on flea pay right now. I'll keep you guys posted.
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Goodwrench3



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RE: "The Boss 429 valve covers hit the roll bar tubing Big Time. "

Is this a problem on the Mercury Cyclone kit too ? I'm just getting ready to start on one and now I'm wondering if I should just build it with the 427 ?

Thanks
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:18 am    Post subject: 69 Boss 429 Talladega oil pan wet or dry sump? Reply with quote

It's worse than that. The entire front suspension starting with the crossmember is too far back. I did not attempt to build mine with the 427 and I did not assemble my 427 to test fit either. I needed the block to use in another project( block, heads and intake manifold don't match up in the MPC Malco Mustang reissue , no chassis work, thank God) that also had issues with the way things fit together. Something that may help you is if you go to hotrod.com and look up" Aero Warrior Leroy Yarborough Talladega" there's a bunch of pictures of the chassis.This is not an easy kit to make right.
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Last edited by Bobby The Cabdriver on Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firefly wrote:
If you like those headers on the JJ/Lee Roy car, a similar set was in the AMT '70/'71 Cobra kit. Not easy or cheap to acquire. You might try scratchbuilding them. (something to pull you further down this rabbit hole) Very Happy


These headers/collectors/dumps were only used on the 429ci FoMoCo cars, regardless of the body style, correct? I don't believe the molds exist for these headers anymore, according to urban legend.
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DustyMojave



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Bobby, I read this and another older thread about the Polar Lights Talladegas and Cyclones. A popular reference is to Matt Macnally's build that he detailed on his website some time ago. But that page of his seems to not be up anymore and he hasn't responded on this forum. I have a downloaded copy of his article and have put it together in a Word document. If I can figure out how to get it on here, I'm willing to share. Maybe it could even become inserted into the already existing dead-end-top-of-the-list sticky?
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:03 am    Post subject: Boss 429 Reply with quote

Dusty, you and anybody else who has important threads of this nature needs to contact Bob Hanner or Dennis O and work on having them restored to The Forum, it is been a running discussion about how much some of this information has been missed, even yesterday it was being discussed on John 847's thread about Petty Road Runners. We all need to work together to get this forum back to where it used to be and unfortunately not only have we lost a lot of the information but we've lost a lot of the people who provided it, it is up to the surviving members to build the Forum back up.
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joe b



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom M. wrote:
All the NASCAR Boss 429 engines were dry sump. The 427 engines were all wet sump in NASCAR, as far as I know.


refresh my memory please. what the difference between dry and wet sump ? the dry sump carries the oil in a rear tank?

joe
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Racer14



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe B., The dry sump uses an external belt driven oil pump that scavenges the oil from the engine pan to a separate oil tank with internal deareator. The deareated solid oil is pulled back from the reservoir tank through the pump and is returned to the engine for lubrication and cooling.
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AdamtheWayne



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racer14 wrote:
Joe B., The dry sump uses an external belt driven oil pump that scavenges the oil from the engine pan to a separate oil tank with internal deareator. The deareated solid oil is pulled back from the reservoir tank through the pump and is returned to the engine for lubrication and cooling.
And for those of us still wondering what a wet sump is? I'm guessing that's the internal system most street vehicles have?
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spooker



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wet sump stores all the non-circulating oil in the oil pan, wet sump pulls all the circulated oil out of the engine to a remote reservoir to cool (sometimes goes thru an actual cooler) and then pumps it back to the engine thru a filter, under pressure to the moving parts. Without the need for oil storage, the wet sump pan is much smaller, allowing the engine to be lowered for better handling.

Brian
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Bobby The Cabdriver



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:38 pm    Post subject: Boss 429 Reply with quote

There's two major reasons for using a dry sump system. First is it provides more consistent oil pressure for high RPM use and also is not affected by oil slapping in the oil pan. Ever beat on a car or truck like doing donuts or j-turns or just simply thrashing down a twisty Road and have your oil pressure light flash on for a heartbeat? That's because you uncovered the pickup in your oil pan with your aggressive driving. Yes you splashed oil around that much inside your pan that you uncovered the pickup. A dry Sump System also allows you the carry more oil and the more oil the better not just for cooling but for the cleanliness of the oil. The other advantage of it has to do with weight. If you're running a low profile dry-sump oil pan it allows you to lower the engine significantly which lowers your center of gravity which allows of course allows for better handling. It also allows you to have a auxiliary oil tank placed where you need need extra weight the most, in the case of oval track cars that would be behind the driver's seat in front of the left rear wheel. A win-win for the racer and all these years later, 50 years later, the same basic system with the same basic principle still used in NASCAR and throughout the world of Motorsport. I hope this helps you understand what that big tank is behind the seat and why your engine has such a small oil pan.
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George Andrews



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dry-sump oiling system also presents a Good News / Bad News when the engine goes BOOM. While there is less oil in the pan to drop onto the tires & track, often the entire dry sump system, including pumps & tank, has to be flushed or even replaced to avoid having any metal particles contaminate the new engine.
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joe b



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spooker wrote:
Wet sump stores all the non-circulating oil in the oil pan, wet sump pulls all the circulated oil out of the engine to a remote reservoir to cool (sometimes goes thru an actual cooler) and then pumps it back to the engine thru a filter, under pressure to the moving parts. Without the need for oil storage, the wet sump pan is much smaller, allowing the engine to be lowered for better handling.

Brian


brian i think you mean the dry sump pan is smaller. the wet sump pan would be bigger since it has to hold all the oil and the pump i would think

joe
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joe b



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so when did nascar change over from the wet sump to dry? i made a lorenzen 65 galaxie a few years ago and used the wet sump system. i ran the lines from the side of the oil pan to a filter, to an oil cooler and back to the pan.


joe
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joe b wrote:
so when did nascar change over from the wet sump to dry? i made a lorenzen 65 galaxie a few years ago and used the wet sump system. i ran the lines from the side of the oil pan to a filter, to an oil cooler and back to the pan.


joe
Teams (rather than NASCAR) began using dry sumps in 1969. The first for sure was the Boss 429 engine. Hemi 426 engines prolly began to use dry sumps right around...and maybe at...the same time. Prior to 1969 (to include the H&M 1965 Galaxies) teams used wet sumps. I am not aware of any Fomoco teams that used the FE dry sump system on their 427s after the Boss motor was choked into uncompetitiveness (beginning in 1971). But that stuff was around from the GT40 programs, so some might have. Bobby Allison's Boss 302 H&M GA Mustang was a dry sump car in 1971. The first Matadors were dry sump engines in 72. I think the transition was a team by team basis.
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:
joe b wrote:
so when did nascar change over from the wet sump to dry? i made a lorenzen 65 galaxie a few years ago and used the wet sump system. i ran the lines from the side of the oil pan to a filter, to an oil cooler and back to the pan.


joe
Teams (rather than NASCAR) began using dry sumps in 1969. The first for sure was the Boss 429 engine. Hemi 426 engines prolly began to use dry sumps right around...and maybe at...the same time. Prior to 1969 (to include the H&M 1965 Galaxies) teams used wet sumps. I am not aware of any Fomoco teams that used the FE dry sump system on their 427s after the Boss motor was choked into uncompetitiveness (beginning in 1971). But that stuff was around from the GT40 programs, so some might have. Bobby Allison's Boss 302 H&M GA Mustang was a dry sump car in 1971. The first Matadors were dry sump engines in 72. I think the transition was a team by team basis.


To add to the timing question:

Charger 500 DC-93 first hit the track at the end of November, 1968, built with a dry sump crossmember. For the initial test, a wet sump pan was used and hung lower than the dry sump pan would have.
The complete dry sump set up was not yet available. Speedway cars built after DC-93 had the dry sump crossmember.
The pan rule was 5" from the track. A shallower pan allowed the engine to sit lower in the crossmember, and thus allowed a lower hood.
Low = fast.
The top Ford and MoPar factory teams had dry sump cars for the 69 Daytona 500 available to them.
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Goodwrench3



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lower = faster
Ligher = quicker
Smile
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