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Building the HM roll cage w/ pics (repost)

 
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slidinsideways



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Building the HM roll cage w/ pics (repost) Reply with quote

Scans from a magazine, cannot recall which... salvaged from my PB acct...





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Michael F



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I allways thought about building this piece of history.

Thanks for posting the pics !!
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67 Fairlane



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Bill got your thread right here including the comments/ pics of the Bill Stroppe chassis.... I must apologize for the poor visual quality of the article and its photos. I copied it to a pdf file and some quality was lost in re-converting it back to a jpeg format. The Bill Stroppe chassis photos were never manipulated so they came back in all their glory. Hope this helps everyone working on those early Mercs.
'62-'64 H/M Roll Cage template NOW ENTIRE ARTICLE w/ PICS!!!
Goto page 1, 2 Next

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slidinsideways



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: '62-'64 H/M Roll Cage template NOW ENTIRE ARTICLE w/ PICS!!! Reply with quote
Since I rarely have an opportunity to contribute and wish to do so, I hope these scans from the above mentioned magazine will be helpful to some. If there is enough interest, I will be happy to scan the entire article including all 24 photos and the materials/parts list. Thank you all for the education you are providing me!



Here is the rest of the article! Thanks for all the kind comments as well!








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fordfan



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Thankyou for posting these scans....very helpful
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
In my always very humble opinion you are a very good contributor.

Thanks for sharing this, too.
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Ancient Modeler
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Brother Bill,

That article is EXTREMELY ACCURATE for the early '60s H/M cage, and with bars added all the way until the end. Of course, in '65 the frame changed, but H/M kept the same main cage and just added bars as required. Banjo, and later Hutcherson/Pagan, used the same main layout.

This differed from the Nichels cage in that H/M used a *halo* bar with front uprights. Nichels cages had front uprights that went back to the main hoop with a cross bar in the top front.

You can't get any better references than those to build a Dark Side H/M car through '64.

Bill <><
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Fallscity48



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Bill a very helpful tutorial for us novices......THANKS FOR POSTING !
I for one would love to see more but small doses are fine.
I know what a pain scanning can be after scanning a lot of photos from my old programs!! (& you must leave room for bench/build time)

Do the H/M cages & frame differ much from the Stroppe cars of the same period ?

Gosh I'm sure glad this forums back.......a minds a terrible thing to waste Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:25 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Fallscity48 wrote:
Bill a very helpful tutorial for us novices......THANKS FOR POSTING !
I for one would love to see more but small doses are fine.
I know what a pain scanning can be after scanning a lot of photos from my old programs!! (& you must leave room for bench/build time)

Do the H/M cages & frame differ much from the Stroppe cars of the same period ?

Gosh I'm sure glad this forums back.......a minds a terrible thing to waste Laughing


Hi Tony,

The Stroppe cars seemed to use the same cage as far as I can tell from period pictures. And a regular Stroppe car had a Champagne Gold interior! The dash panel was very similar, so the 4D resin one will work, I haven't gotten into trying to make the cast in *_M_* that was on the lower right hand side. Gonna have to tackle that one when I retire in June! LOL!! Very Happy
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Fallscity48



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Ancient Modeler wrote:
Gonna have to tackle that one when I retire in June! LOL!! Very Happy


Shocked I need to talk to your investment manager......he's got to be doing great for you getting to retire a couple of decades before normal Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: Reply with quote
A *couple decades before normal*????????? Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'd say 34 years in public education on the secondary level is *decades* enough! LOL!!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
The Stroppe cage did differ in actual construction as pointed out by Dr. Craft. As far as teh *STYLE* of cage it was very similar to the H/M cage and differed a good bit from a Nichel's cage.

The following pictures were sent by Doc:

These are specific to the 1964 Mercurys










From Doc:

The Stroppe cages were NOT the same as an H+M cage. Whereas the roll bar
(just behind the driver) in an H+M car featured a lower cross bar than ran
between the legs of the roll bar (just above the transmission tunnel). That same
bar on a Stroppe car ran ahead of the roll bar and between the lower driver's
and passenger's side door bars. The halo bar on a Stroppe car was butt
welded to the to of the front of the roll bar whereas H+M halo bars were welded
to flame cut tabs that were welded to the back and top of the roll bar. At
least some Stroppe cars featured bolt-in diagonal bars that ran from the shoulder
bar (that ran behind the driver in the roll bar) and the rear frame. These
same cars also featured a bolt-in front diagonal that ran from the shoulder
bar to the front right frame. Holman cars featured welded in bars at both
locations. Stroppe cars also featured seat belt brackets that were made from
right angle metal with holes drilled in it. Small overall differences, to be
sure. But the cages weren't the same.
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Troy



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I am a weld inspector by trade, man, those guys had huge coconuts driving those cars. Those welds were rough, especially when you see modern race cars that have top quality welds.

But, I remember my Dad cobling his roll cages together in the back yard. The cage was all made from steam pipe (skd 40 I would say) and it originally came to him in a mid '70's Torino and he modifed it to fit a Nova, so, I guess things were different in those days...

Love this site and love these old pictures.... I lose a lot of time on this site Wink
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genuine jack



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: Reply with quote
why is the passenger side upright padded ?
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Fallscity48



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Ancient Modeler wrote:
The Stroppe cage did differ in actual construction as pointed out by Dr. Craft. As far as teh *STYLE* of cage it was very similar to the H/M cage and differed a good bit from a Nichel's cage.

pictures were sent by Doc:


Bill
This is most helpful...... seeing the comparisions.
So helpful that this need to be a sticky for reference on 62-64 H/M & Stroppe car cages (minus someone's rude comments about your investments Very Happy )
Doc..thanks for sharing & Ancient One thanks for posting.

T
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for making this a sticky!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
slimlouis wrote:
Thanks for making this a sticky!


You are most welcome! It is dead on accurate, and will be a great help for anyone having to scratch build cages for these subjects.

I need to get assurances as to when/where extra bars were mandated. I know that the kick downs from the top of the main cage to the rear floor area were initiated on the H/M Galaxies in 1964 (and varied somewhat at first), but Louie Clemments added them to Rex's gold and white Mercury in latter 1963. (thanks to Mike C.!)

Bill
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genuine jack



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: Reply with quote
does anyone know why the passenger side upright is padded on the stroppe car ?
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REPLICAS



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: Reply with quote
genuine jack, do you mean the bar that comes up from the right front tire area to the roll bar? if so, i recall a local driver who drove a mercury conv in the old SAFE curcuit hit the wall so hard that his body stretched and his head/helmet hit the battery that was mounted on the floor where a passengers feet would be. on this particular car, only a lap belt was used. the stroppe cars had shoulder belts but i think that there was still some body movement upon contact. i suspect that is why that bar is padded.
thanks,
paul
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genuine jack



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: Reply with quote
no , i mean the verticle bar that would be right behind the passenger's right shoulder , if there was a passenger sitting on the right side . you can see the padded bar in the bottom photo .
jack
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joe b.



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
guys, thank you to all this is awesome some of what i was looking for. where did you get all this?
now does anyone have similar detail on the wiring and plumbing of these cars oil lines/coolers, filters. location of oil tanks coolers radiator overflow fuel cell/trunk layout etc ?..... would be willing to pay for a collection of general schematics from this era. my next build i plan to do the wood brothers 71 cyclone using the mk kit and would like to detail it.

joe.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
joe b. wrote:
guys, thank you to all this is awesome some of what i was looking for. where did you get all this?
now does anyone have similar detail on the wiring and plumbing of these cars oil lines/coolers, filters. location of oil tanks coolers radiator overflow fuel cell/trunk layout etc ?..... would be willing to pay for a collection of general schematics from this era. my next build i plan to do the wood brothers 71 cyclone using the mk kit and would like to detail it.

joe.


Hi joe,

Unfortunately, all the information you are asking for cannot be found in one section,......... yet! Very Happy

The parts and there locations were pretty similar on H/M built cars, so taking one area at a time will be pretty easy to do, but ALL at one time will take a ton of time to collect and write in a post.

I have a good knowledge now of where everything went, and was located, so I can answer individual questions as can Doc and some others.

So......... where do you want to start? Specifically which engine, etc.. 429s were dry sumps, 427s and before, never were. H/M was also the ONLY builders to use the upright dry powder bottle (they started as DC-7 CO^2 engine fire suppressors, , but suffocating the driver wasn't a good idea, so...... Very Happy ) behind the driver's seat, no one else used them. ( a lot of incorrect model kits made! LOL!! ) Since the Wood Bros. cars came form H/M I believe the '71 Cyclone still had that feature, and I am pretty sure the Museum car, a real one, had that. It died with the demise of H/M in NASCAR.

There were at least 2 (and I have heard 3) '70 1/2-'71 Cyclones from the Wood Bros. One of them used a red seat, the other(s) a black seat. All were gray spatter paint interiors with black roll cages. Black underneath, AFAIK. *Bright* White bodies and Candy Apple Red Pearl roofs.

Very early, the engine blocks went to red on the 429s of the Wood Bros. The dry sump pumps on the 429 were not readily visible. a scavenge pump was inside the pan and a pressure pump to send the oil to the oil reservoir was kinda hidden at the bottom of the front cover. Bith oil lines came off the side (passenger) of the pan. The actual pan was two piece, aluminum rear and magnesium front, split right at the chassis cross member.

Oil cooler was mounted at the left front corner off the front hoop. Oil tank for th e429 was in the driver's compartment. Position varied, and I am not 100% sure where the Wood Bros. put theirs.

The PL chassis is perfect for the Cyclone. (it needs some *minor tweaks, but it is MILES ahead of the generic MPC/MK chassis in accuracy)

Bill <><
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genuine jack



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: Reply with quote
ahem.....AHEM !!... can anyone hear me ? is this thing on ? can SOMEONE please tell me why that passenger side upright bar in the last pic of the interior of stroppe's car is padded ? this is the 4th time i've asked , and i'm mad as h...[brian france ] , and i'm not going to take it anymore !! [ Very Happy ].
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: Reply with quote
genuine jack wrote:
ahem.....AHEM !!... can anyone hear me ? is this thing on ? can SOMEONE please tell me why that passenger side upright bar in the last pic of the interior of stroppe's car is padded ? this is the 4th time i've asked , and i'm mad as h...[brian france ] , and i'm not going to take it anymore !! [ Very Happy ].


Hi Jack,

No answer, mainly because no one else knows either, I would say! I sure as heck don't know, and neither does anyone else who has read this thread, apparently. Someone would have answered if they knew...........
Very Happy
Bill <><
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genuine jack



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Reply with quote
thanx bill-
i'm not mad anymore !! Very Happy
jack
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Ancient Modeler wrote:
joe b. wrote:
guys, thank you to all this is awesome some of what i was looking for. where did you get all this?
now does anyone have similar detail on the wiring and plumbing of these cars oil lines/coolers, filters. location of oil tanks coolers radiator overflow fuel cell/trunk layout etc ?..... would be willing to pay for a collection of general schematics from this era. my next build i plan to do the wood brothers 71 cyclone using the mk kit and would like to detail it.

joe.


Hi joe,

Unfortunately, all the information you are asking for cannot be found in one section,......... yet! Very Happy

The parts and there locations were pretty similar on H/M built cars, so taking one area at a time will be pretty easy to do, but ALL at one time will take a ton of time to collect and write in a post.

I have a good knowledge now of where everything went, and was located, so I can answer individual questions as can Doc and some others.

So......... where do you want to start? Specifically which engine, etc.. 429s were dry sumps, 427s and before, never were. H/M was also the ONLY builders to use the upright dry powder bottle (they started as DC-7 CO^2 engine fire suppressors, , but suffocating the driver wasn't a good idea, so...... Very Happy ) behind the driver's seat, no one else used them. ( a lot of incorrect model kits made! LOL!! ) Since the Wood Bros. cars came form H/M I believe the '71 Cyclone still had that feature, and I am pretty sure the Museum car, a real one, had that. It died with the demise of H/M in NASCAR.

There were at least 2 (and I have heard 3) '70 1/2-'71 Cyclones from the Wood Bros. One of them used a red seat, the other(s) a black seat. All were gray spatter paint interiors with black roll cages. Black underneath, AFAIK. *Bright* White bodies and Candy Apple Red Pearl roofs.

Very early, the engine blocks went to red on the 429s of the Wood Bros. The dry sump pumps on the 429 were not readily visible. a scavenge pump was inside the pan and a pressure pump to send the oil to the oil reservoir was kinda hidden at the bottom of the front cover. Bith oil lines came off the side (passenger) of the pan. The actual pan was two piece, aluminum rear and magnesium front, split right at the chassis cross member.

Oil cooler was mounted at the left front corner off the front hoop. Oil tank for th e429 was in the driver's compartment. Position varied, and I am not 100% sure where the Wood Bros. put theirs.

The PL chassis is perfect for the Cyclone. (it needs some *minor tweaks, but it is MILES ahead of the generic MPC/MK chassis in accuracy)

Bill <><


yeah, i have heard some horror stories related to assembling them though. would mpc/mk bodies fit the pl chassis without too much work? have you tried it yet?
i was curious about those red bottles behind the drivers seat in the mk kits (in fact i think they are in the pl kits too). you say they are fire bottles? i thought they were crude fore runners to today's oil tanks. so where did they have the oil tanks then? what is the chrome part that goes on the right front part of the hoop in the mk kits, and i think the pl kits too? i'm planning on building pearsons purolator cyclone and want to be fairly accurate. i realize the average observer will not look at the build up and say hey, that line shouldn't be there idunno so i am not too concerned with 100%accuracy but i would like to get the engine and basic system right.

joe.
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Ancient Modeler
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Joe,

I have used the PL Ford/Mercury chassis for all my MK/MPC Cyclone builds. They are VERY correct for them. They also work great under the Revell '70 TorinoGT and Cobra bodies. Pretty accurate there, too. A touch of sanding on the rear firewal *might* be necessary, but that's it.

The major problem with the PL kit is using the 429 engine. The frame rails, etc., are just not quite wide enough. I Dremel everything abut paper thin in that area. Build the engine and start fitting. Grind until it fits!

The oil tank for the engine (429 ONLY!) was in the passenger compartment. Sometimes it was between the *V* bar that goes off the shoulder bar back through the rear firewall. There seems to be no specific placement according to pictures. I will find and post how I did the tank on a Junior Johnson Talladega. I used a piece from the AMT early NASCAR T-Bird kit, cut down to fit.

The oil cooler is attached to an arm off the front hoop. on the LEFT (Driver's) side. And a remote oil filter set up is also used. An adapter plate was put in place of the stock oil filter mount and lines from there to the oil cooler and back.

Bill <><
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joe b.



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
thanks bill. so there was no visible exterior sump pump used, it was located inside the oil pan, ok. where did the oil lines exit the engine to the oil tank and did they go through the drivers compartment or run out side the roll cage between the cage and the body.
if i do decide to use the mpc/mk chassis then what is that tank on the right front (passenger side) hoop? is that supposed to be an oil tank or a radiator overflow? did they ever actually locate the oil tanks there? i can't see teams realistically running w/the oil reservoir located there since one good shot into the wall or another car and you have ,what maybe 15 qt of oil all over the track.
thanks, joe.
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skunkyg420



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for this! Its really cool and helpfull for not only this car but anything. Thank you! boogie
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
joe b. wrote:
thanks bill. so there was no visible exterior sump pump used, it was located inside the oil pan, ok. where did the oil lines exit the engine to the oil tank and did they go through the drivers compartment or run out side the roll cage between the cage and the body.
if i do decide to use the mpc/mk chassis then what is that tank on the right front (passenger side) hoop? is that supposed to be an oil tank or a radiator overflow? did they ever actually locate the oil tanks there? i can't see teams realistically running w/the oil reservoir located there since one good shot into the wall or another car and you have ,what maybe 15 qt of oil all over the track.
thanks, joe.


Hi Joe,

Sorry, I thought I mentioned the oil lines! Geez... it's bad getting OLDER! Laughing

Correct, the pressure pump is kinda hidden on the lower front cover, and the scavenge pump was in the pan. The lines came out the passenger side on the pan near the front, about half up from the bottom. They then went through the foot rest of the floor board, through the compartment to the tank, and back.

The tank had a *square* sheet metal cover, or *box*, over it. The lines came out the top and bottom front of the tank cover, and there was a cap on the top,also. There was an oval opening in the front of the cover and a sight tube was visible trough that *slot*. In the Banjo/Junior cars, the tank *straddled* the rear firewall, and teh top was about even with the bottom of the window.

I really do not know off the top of my head (nor do I remember! LOL!!) that there was anything on the right front. Even the raditor expansion for the 429 cars was on the left side, IIRC. And the oil cooler DEFINITELY was. (427s ran the old expansion tanks on the engine itself)

I'll post some pictures soon.

Bill <><


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Dry Sump tank in a Talladega (model LOL!!)





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joe b.



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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
bill, that is some awsome work. nice detail.what did you use for the oil tank box cover?

joe.
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Lucky13



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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Beautiful building! drool
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: Reply with quote
joe b. wrote:
bill, that is some awsome work. nice detail.what did you use for the oil tank box cover?

joe.


Hi Joe,

That is out of the '90s AMT NASCAR T-Bird. It the inner panels that go behind the driver, cut in half.

Bill Little
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Reply with quote
very nice clean work , bill .
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:46 am Post subject: Reply with quote
This is all great info.
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33fan



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:38 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Where can I get a full size copy of the templates? This is awesome! On the templates posted it says they are from Scale Auto but the article indicates that it is from Car Modeler. I use a laptop, so it all appears small and hard to see on my screen.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:55 am Post subject: Reply with quote
33fan wrote:
Where can I get a full size copy of the templates? This is awesome! On the templates posted it says they are from Scale Auto but the article indicates that it is from Car Modeler. I use a laptop, so it all appears small and hard to see on my screen.

Thanks!


The article was in Car Modeler. I cannot recall the issue right now, and it is packed in storage in the basement. I was glad to see that article because I had been doing it all *by hand*. I made the jig for the main hoop, it is a nice piece to have and really speeds up the process.

Mongo
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33fan



Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 463
Location: Peoria, IL

PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:17 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, I'd like to build those jigs too. That tip about using the heat gun was great too.

I love this place.
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33fan



Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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Location: Peoria, IL

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:05 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OK, I got the issue of the 2002 Car Modeler. GREAT article and it's nice to see larger pictures. I'm gonna give that a shot. The plastic chassis looks very real. As a bonus, that issue also has an article on resin casting small parts including wheels and tires. So guess what I'm going to try? LOL
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Ancient Modeler
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:29 am Post subject: Reply with quote
33fan wrote:
OK, I got the issue of the 2002 Car Modeler. GREAT article and it's nice to see larger pictures. I'm gonna give that a shot. The plastic chassis looks very real. As a bonus, that issue also has an article on resin casting small parts including wheels and tires. So guess what I'm going to try? LOL


You will have fun!

If you want to drop a '60 (original kit)-'64 AMT body over that chassis, there are a couple things to watch out for. Not tough to do,but just to make sure the body of the old Annual kits sets over the chassis.

Also, if you ARE going to put a body over it other than the "new" (last 10 years) '60 Starliner then drill the holes for the main hoop and front down bars all the way through the floor pan. It makes fitting the cage up tight against the roof much easier.

Mongo
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ON THE BENCH: ???? (a couple hundred or more....)
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33fan



Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 463
Location: Peoria, IL

PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:16 am Post subject: Reply with quote
As I'm looking at the magazine, I noticed in the pic that shows the actual chassis, on the upper hoop, there appears to be writing. I think it looks like "Dan Gurney". Any one else see that? Is it a chassis for Gurney?
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Wood Brothers Junkie



Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 178


PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:35 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I joined this forum to learn how to build better nascar models, WOW. The detail photos you guys have are awesome. There is not much nascar material up here in Minnesota, I pretty have to build on what I can find, and that isn't much. This site is going to be an huge help. As soon as I can download some photos of my Wood Brothers collection I will. I am glad I was told about this site. Chris
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Gordie



Joined: 28 Apr 2012
Posts: 541
Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:48 am Post subject: Reply with quote
This excellent article is from the 2002 edition of Car Modeler magazine, a Kalmbach publication. This chassis and roll cage is correct for any full size two door 1960 - 1964 Ford or Mercury. 1963 Grand National cars were required to have a single horizontal brace on either side of the roll cage. 1964 cars were required to have three horizontal roll cage bars on the driver's side, as well as the single bar on the right side. Two other reasons that car model builders might want to try and track down a back issue is for the article on how to make opening doors, trunks, and hoods with hinges, as well as the article on casting your own resin parts.

Gordie

http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/nascarmodelbuilders/
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Honda446



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 32
Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:34 am Post subject: Reply with quote
this is a great thread. awesome pics and work, but is there anything like this for mid to late '50s NASCAR roll bars/cages?
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Gordie



Joined: 28 Apr 2012
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:26 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I scoured the internet until I was blue in the face trying to find out information about NASCAR regulations during the fifties. There is not a lot of online information about that subject. Being born in Canada in 1952, I had not even heard of NASCAR until the mid sixties. However when I saw and heard forty big block cars with open exhausts roaring around an oval track on ABC's Wide World of Sports, I was hooked. So unless someone who is older and/or lives in the southeastern United States can provide more details, this is the best that I was able to come up with: most fifties stock car racers were bought from the local car dealer and had their headlights only taped over at first, but eventually the headlights were replaced with sheet metal. Leather straps were used to keep the doors closed. The hub caps were removed. The car was given a tune up. Roll bars were not required until 1953. Roll cages were introduced around 1960. Seat belts were introduced in the mid fifties, but most drivers hated them, and it took some time for NASCAR to require their use. Flame proof coveralls were introduced in 1954. Numbers and sponsor decals were applied to the cars, which were often driven to the track. Racing tires were illegal at first, but were permitted in 1952. There is a chapter in Bill Coulter's "Building and Detailing Scale Model Stock Cars", an excellent book for Darksiders which is unfortunately out of print, about building 1957 NASCAR racers, although Revell's '57 Chevy Black Widow pretty well covers all the bases as far as a Chevrolet is concerned. This is probably your best bet for building a fifties stock car racer. I will ask Terry Anderson (Darkside Daddy) if he can shed a little light on the subject.

Gordie

http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/nascarmodelbuilders/
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Honda446



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 32
Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:17 am Post subject: Reply with quote
thanks Gordie, I really appreciate the insight. I too have been all over the net searching. you would think that in this day and age, there would be pics/images of nearly everything, but not so.

unfortunately I can't even use old Petty pics from 57-58 as, if I remember correctly, Lee had Oldsmobiles rather than Plymouths. I have several photos of the Kiekhaefer 300Bs from 56 and while most of the car isn't interchangeable, the technology and safety requrements may be.

its a lot more difficult than I thought to build an accurate model of a car that never was, ya know??? LOL
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Gordie



Joined: 28 Apr 2012
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:27 am Post subject: Reply with quote
So what car exactly do you want to build?

Gordie

http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/nascarmodelbuilders
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't think roll bars were required until '53 or '54 unless the car was a pillarless hardtop. Interiors were still more or less stock. Headlights were taped over until '54 or so, then they were required to be removed and covered over.
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Gordie



Joined: 28 Apr 2012
Posts: 541
Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:02 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I found some information about late fifties Ford stock cars in my copy of "Ford, Lincoln, & Mercury Stock Cars" by Dr. John Craft. According to Dr. Craft, in 1955 extra shocks were installed on all four corners, (these can be scratch made) and reinforced rims were installed. Plastic Performance Products #HM-9 wheels can be used. They are a little wide for a fifties racer, so they will need to be narrowed by .060". PPP also sells a Goodyear tire for 1957-1959 stock cars. A single hoop roll bar was installed at the same time that most of the cars' interior accouterments were removed. 1956 saw the first installation of roll cages, although at that time it was more for chassis rigidity than safety. A Plastic Performance Products #RC Vintage Roll Cage Kit could be used here. Shock mounts were fabricated for the extra shock absorbers, fore and aft. Running lights were removed, and their openings were covered. The driver's door was bolted shut. Rear seat removal was permitted by what is refered to as an exceedingly thin 1956 rules book (maybe that is why we couldn't find any information online) as was removal of the passenger's seat back on the stock front bench seat. Aircraft surplus seat belts were used. The picture of the dash of the 1957 Stroppe Mercury shows a tachometer mounted in the dash above the steering wheel. It is flanked by what I believe are an oil pressure guage and a temperature guage. The car has the steering wheel taped. The transmission is a three speed column shift. The floor carpet appears to have been removed. A fire extinguisher has been installed, and the door trim panels appear to have been replaced with some type of grey vinyl covering.

Gordie

http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/nascarmodelbuilders/

Last edited by Gordie on Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:20 am; edited 2 times in total
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Honda446



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 32
Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:21 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Gordie wrote:
So what car exactly do you want to build?

Gordie

http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/nascarmodelbuilders


its one of the cars that Carl Kiekhaefer bought to race at Road America in July of 57. he purchased 4 300Cs: a Red, White, Black and a special order Gray one. I'm making the Gray car. from what I understand, Kiekhaefer began modifying them for NASCAR but before they were completed, the NASCAR Road Racing Division was cancelled and so the race never happened. the cars were then all returned to street condition with Kiekhaefer taking one for his personal use and one of the others was used by one of his staff. one car, the Gray one, still exists and is being currently restored in Kansas.

I've been in contact with the shop and the owner of the car who have been great help with some of the special items such as the Kiekhaefer shop fabricated exhaust manifolds and pipes along with some of the chassis mods. just nothing on what the roll bar would have looked like. from what I understand, the cars didn't get to the point of having the interiors modified, so they remained stock. this is why there are no pics of the interior with the roll bar.

I'm making the car as if it were completed to compete in NASCAR competition at Road America. since the 'race' car never exsisted, I can use my imagination a bit, but I want most of it to be as accurate as possible.
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Gordie



Joined: 28 Apr 2012
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:18 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I got my answer from Terry Anderson about looking for fifties information. He suggests asking Dr. Craft, Tom M, gary66 or other board members. You might have to post a message addressing them by name or PM them to get an answer.

Gordie

http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/nascarmodelbuilders/
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Gordie



Joined: 28 Apr 2012
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:49 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Another person to ask for information is Mike Clements. His father worked for Ray Fox, and brought him to all the races.

Gordie

http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/nascarmodelbuilders/


Last edited by 67 Fairlane on Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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67 Fairlane



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 125
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found some additional photos that were not included in the original thread. Most if not all these can be credited to Dr. Craft:

These photos are details of the 1963 Holman-Moody chassis:
















I think this pic is a 1962 chassis.


Just found this 2nd view of the '62 HM chassis

Next here are some additional Bill Stroppe photos like the previous set these are specific to the 1964 Mercs.:






This one's from a '63 Merc.


'64 Merc Powerplant!


Another view


A look inside the Holman-Moody shops ca.1963.

Hope this helps.

Jerry


Last edited by 67 Fairlane on Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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slidinsideways



Joined: 01 Feb 2018
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother, thank you for saving and reposting this for me and all of us !
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Wedge



Joined: 06 Feb 2018
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOLD!!!!!
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